Search the forum,

Discuss Solid fuel back boiler. in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

Status
Not open for further replies.
Messages
21
Hi guys I'm looking for a bit of advice. I need to get five radiators from this stove 3 upstairs and 2 downstairs I don't need to go to a hot water tank and I have no header tank for the system so I'm hoping I can just have a circuit or 2 for rads only I have 1 grundfos pump but can get another if 2 circuits are required. I've got no problem pipe fitting the rads I'm just wondering if I need to use all the ports on the stove or can I cap 2 off and have 1 circuit. Any advice as to whether I need a vent, prv, expansion vessel or anything else would be great. Cheers guys. Rob

1506854137122183215721.jpg
 
For your safety and the safety of others within a 300 metre radius, I would not cap off any of the ports on the back of that stove.

I've never seen or installed one, but can only assume from the existing piping, how it is configured inside the unit.

Capping any ports will cause major heartache the first time it is fired up.

Be vary careful if you don't know what you are doing!!!!
 
For your safety and the safety of others within a 300 metre radius, I would not cap off any of the ports on the back of that stove.

I've never seen or installed one, but can only assume from the existing piping, how it is configured inside the unit.

Capping any ports will cause major heartache the first time it is fired up.

Be vary careful if you don't know what you are doing!!!!
For your safety and the safety of others within a 300 metre radius, I would not cap off any of the ports on the back of that stove.

I've never seen or installed one, but can only assume from the existing piping, how it is configured inside the unit.

Capping any ports will cause major heartache the first time it is fired up.

Be vary careful if you don't know what you are doing!!!!

I thought this would be the case. Should I use the old hot water tank feed for upstairs on a pump and the rads feed for downstairs on a separate pump.
 
Bobby , I am all for helping people trying to save money and do a bit of DIY , but please no no no .

I'm not a diyer I've been pipe fitting 15 years in the refrigeration and air conditioning industry and also do mechanical and domestic plumbing through my work. I am well aware of the dangers of a solid fuel stove. I will ask my plumber friend on site next week to produce a drawing for me which i will follow exactly. That is what I was after really a little drawing to follow, as I'm not a moron I think I'll be able to do it I was just after a schematic really.
 
No. No. No. Takes more than a little drawing. It's not a diy job. Pipefitting and refrigeration means sfa. Embrace your limitations and get somebody in.
 
you need to know what your doing as the lads have said, else it will kill you also you need to be hetas registered

i would keep it open vent with a steel f and e tank

central_heating_stove.gif
 
you need to know what your doing as the lads have said, else it will kill you also you need to be hetas registered

i would keep it open vent with a steel f and e tank

central_heating_stove.gif
you need to know what your doing as the lads have said, else it will kill you also you need to be hetas registered

i would keep it open vent with a steel f and e tank

central_heating_stove.gif
Cheers Shaun I will speak to my mate at stovetech and see if he will come take a look. I don't need any domestic hot water just 5 rads in total. I was just wondering if it could be done rads only without the tank as a heat exchanger.
 
Where is all your excess boiling water gonna go in the event of pump failure or a power cut or rads turned off. Unless you are running 5 rads on gravity or similar set up be very careful.
 
Where is all your excess boiling water gonna go in the event of pump failure or a power cut or rads turned off. Unless you are running 5 rads on gravity or similar set up be very careful.

I was thinking a vent to outside or prv. I'm no expert but was thinking there must be a way to do just rads on their own in a closrd circuit without hot water tank coming into itcorrect me if I'm wrong,And I will have to put a tank in but I'm very limited for space as its a small cottage. Is their no way of just running the 5 rads on a circuit with prv or vent??
 
Tbh, this thread almost read as a wind up!
If you know a really good solid fuel heating engineer, then let them sort the pipework design out. I have been doing solid fuel heating and various link ups to oil systems for many years and I know the pipework needs very professionally done.
You mention using an expansion vessel, - how would that help when your uncontrolled boiler puts the heat in the sealed system up to near boiling point? (which is actually lower if on higher pressure)
A heat leak rad won't do much to massive excess heat when circulating pump fails or electric power cut.
 
Tbh, this thread almost read as a wind up!
If you know a really good solid fuel heating engineer, then let them sort the pipework design out. I have been doing solid fuel heating and various link ups to oil systems for many years and I know the pipework needs very professionally done.
You mention using an expansion vessel, - how would that help when your uncontrolled boiler puts the heat in the sealed system up to near boiling point? (which is actually lower if on higher pressure)
A heat leak rad won't do much to massive excess heat when circulating pump fails or electric power cut.

Looking at it in more detail I think I'm going to have to rethink my heating and just have a wood burning stove in the living room without a back boiler as I just don't have the room to do a gravity fed system. Maybe I will just put some electric rads in upstairs and forget about solid fuel heating as it seems like it would be impossible in my small cottage.
 
Looking at it in more detail I think I'm going to have to rethink my heating and just have a wood burning stove in the living room without a back boiler as I just don't have the room to do a gravity fed system. Maybe I will just put some electric rads in upstairs and forget about solid fuel heating as it seems like it would be impossible in my small cottage.

Certainly a room heater stove would be sensible in a small home.
If you had air conditioning then the heat from the stove would be circulated around the entire home. Careful to not oversize your choice of stove, although log size might be a consideration.
I assume you don't have any hot water cylinder, - or else unvented cylinder?
 
Certainly a room heater stove would be sensible in a small home.
If you had air conditioning then the heat from the stove would be circulated around the entire home. Careful to not oversize your choice of stove, although log size might be a consideration.
I assume you don't have any hot water cylinder, - or else unvented cylinder?
My hot water comes from a fortic immersion cylinder as we are very pressed for space.
The old install just went from the stove up through a fortic tank to heat exchange and onto rads as well there were no gravity header tanks which is why I thought there might be a way of doing just rads on their own off the stove it seems the old install was not up to scratch and I was wrong to think I could just pipe some rads off the stove. This leaves me struggling for a central heating system as i literally have no room for tanks upstairs.
 
Still possible to use a combined thermal store cylinder.
A direct type will mean you just need two of 28mm gravity primaries connecting into the tank connections. The pumped circuit just come off the cylinder to rads and controlled by a stat - on cylinder, or perhaps advisable on primary return at cylinder.
Various types of these cylinders, some with a mains coil and some with external exchanger for mains hot.
None of them require unvented regs, as not technically unvented cylinders and have under 15 litre mains quantity.
 
Still possible to use a combined thermal store cylinder.
A direct type will mean you just need two of 28mm gravity primaries connecting into the tank connections. The pumped circuit just come off the cylinder to rads and controlled by a stat - on cylinder, or perhaps advisable on primary return at cylinder.
Various types of these cylinders, some with a mains coil and some with external exchanger for mains hot.
None of them require unvented regs, as not technically unvented cylinders and have under 15 litre mains quantity.

agree with you mate but the regs have changed anything hot water is g3 registered these days
 
Still possible to use a combined thermal store cylinder.
A direct type will mean you just need two of 28mm gravity primaries connecting into the tank connections. The pumped circuit just come off the cylinder to rads and controlled by a stat - on cylinder, or perhaps advisable on primary return at cylinder.
Various types of these cylinders, some with a mains coil and some with external exchanger for mains hot.
None of them require unvented regs, as not technically unvented cylinders and have under 15 litre mains quantity.

I did see one of these being piped recently and it looked awesome all came pre piped with labelled stubs and pump attached. But would I be able to run it on the ground floor??
 
Assume it would be okay for a non G3 person to work on a thermal store?

I'd have assumed the same, if the store is vented.

If installing a stove legally, you need to be either going down the notify building control route or registered as a competent person for solid fuel with HETAS, OFTEC, or similar organisation. I've seen illegal installs that work and are reasonably safe, but your original post did make my hair stand on end slightly because you don't seem to understand the basic principles of a gravity system.

Broadly speaking you need to consider expansion, boiling (water expands 1600x when it boils), and where to dump the heat. The system has to be idiot proof and has to be safe to use even if the fire is fully loaded, you fall asleep, and the electricity supply or pump fails. This means gravity circulation is a must. You need an open vent, which means you really do need a header tank. Some clever computer controlled solid fuel sources dump cold water through the boiler if the system overheats (via a mechanical valve) and this probably wrecks the boiler but it does mean you can seal the system instead of using a header tank, but what you have is a basic backboiler and this wouldn't be appropriate. This doesn't mean you HAVE to have a hot water cylinder, but it does mean you HAVE to have gravity circulation. Also, find out what the heat output from that boiler is - it may or may not be huge.

If you really want to go down the DIY route, I suggest you get information from the solid fuel association and do a bit of your own research then come back to us. At the moment (as of your original post) you are barking very much up the wrong tree.

Not sure why your stove has 4 ports. I have seen 4 port backboilers that seem to be designed for semi-gravity systems where 2 ports are pumped and the other two are feed and vent connexions and these will work if one high and one low are blanked, but I see no advantage in blanking off and wouldn't do it unless I was sure that that boiler was designed to be used in that way.
 
I did see one of these being piped recently and it looked awesome all came pre piped with labelled stubs and pump attached. But would I be able to run it on the ground floor??

You can have a thermal store on the ground floor, but your backboiler needs to be able to work on gravity in case of a power fail. So if you normally pump your water to the thermal store and there is a power/pump fail, you will have a potentially dangerous situation.
 
I'd have assumed the same, if the store is vented.

If installing a stove legally, you need to be either going down the notify building control route or registered as a competent person for solid fuel with HETAS, OFTEC, or similar organisation. I've seen illegal installs that work and are reasonably safe, but your original post did make my hair stand on end slightly because you don't seem to understand the basic principles of a gravity system.

Broadly speaking you need to consider expansion, boiling (water expands 1600x when it boils), and where to dump the heat. The system has to be idiot proof and has to be safe to use even if the fire is fully loaded, you fall asleep, and the electricity supply or pump fails. This means gravity circulation is a must. You need an open vent, which means you really do need a header tank. Some clever computer controlled solid fuel sources dump cold water through the boiler if the system overheats (via a mechanical valve) and this probably wrecks the boiler but it does mean you can seal the system instead of using a header tank, but what you have is a basic backboiler and this wouldn't be appropriate. This doesn't mean you HAVE to have a hot water cylinder, but it does mean you HAVE to have gravity circulation. Also, find out what the heat output from that boiler is - it may or may not be huge.

If you really want to go down the DIY route, I suggest you get information from the solid fuel association and do a bit of your own research then come back to us. At the moment (as of your original post) you are barking very much up the wrong tree.

Not sure why your stove has 4 ports. I have seen 4 port backboilers that seem to be designed for semi-gravity systems where 2 ports are pumped and the other two are feed and vent connexions and these will work if one high and one low are blanked, but I see no advantage in blanking off and wouldn't do it unless I was sure that that boiler was designed to be used in that way.


It has become quite apparent that the way it was installed before which i was hoping to copy while just bypassing the tank was not very good and possibly dangerous it had 5 radiators and the coil of a fortic piped to it in a completely enclosed system with a pump. There were no tanks feeding it or venting to. Anyway i really don't have the space to install so I'm going to just put a normal burner in the fire place and get rid of the back boiler idea all together. What heating system would you suggest for a small cottage with no chance of a tank on the second floor?? I'm pretty much stumped and short of putting in a air conditioning system or air source heat pump I don't know what to do.??
 
Small cottage, no loft? No mains gas or oil, I'm assuming? Insulate and draftproof well and use electric boiler/electric heaters?

I'm not saying your idea of putting a woodburning stove with backboiler in is daft - it's exactly what I'd do in your position! I'm just saying your plan as originally described in detail was dangerous. I'd probably use some form of vented thermal store with immersion heater backup pumped to boiler and (gravity) heat leak radiator at high level. Your header tank wouldn't need to be huge. But for C's sake, at least pay someone with the knowledge to do a site visit and design your system to be safe is all I'm saying.

If you want a small stove without backboiler with a small output, have a look at the "Hobbit" model. I saw one at a friend's house and was quite impressed.

Bedtime reading: How to install a Wood Burning Stove - fit a wood burner yourself
 
What if it were, say, an OLD Gledhill Boilermate (I quote the model because I'm familiar with it). It's open vented, so how is it anything like an unvented cylinder?

if its mains feed it comes under g3 if its tank feed no need for g3
 
Ric2013 -
The 4 tappings are used for 2 gravity primaries and 2 pumped pipes to rads. (Vent & Feed through those primaries)
Although it can also be done with 3 pipes leaving boiler, with gravity and pumped returns connected through an injector tee.
Also can be used with just 2 diagonal gravity connections to a Dunsley Neutraliser or Thermal Store.
 
Small cottage, no loft? No mains gas or oil, I'm assuming? Insulate and draftproof well and use electric boiler/electric heaters?

I'm not saying your idea of putting a woodburning stove with backboiler in is daft - it's exactly what I'd do in your position! I'm just saying your plan as originally described in detail was dangerous. I'd probably use some form of vented thermal store with immersion heater backup pumped to boiler and (gravity) heat leak radiator at high level. Your header tank wouldn't need to be huge. But for C's sake, at least pay someone with the knowledge to do a site visit and design your system to be safe is all I'm saying.

If you want a small stove without backboiler with a small output, have a look at the "Hobbit" model. I saw one at a friend's house and was quite impressed.

Bedtime reading: How to install a Wood Burning Stove - fit a wood burner yourself

Yeah I understand what your saying and won't be attempting anything myself now. I'll probably just use a normal wood burner and some electric oil heaters for the foreseeable future. I might just put a multi split a/c with 3 wall mounts in at least then I can cool it in the summer as well and it will probably cost less too.
 
Looking at the picture if the stove first thing missing is a safety valve most of the boilers can use two or four pipe systems safely if done right if your just doing one circuit for rads use you rad upstairs as a heat sink rad fit a feed and expansion tank run expansion pipe from stove right up to tank and feed directly down to boiler if you only use two connections use other two for safety valve and drain off but if you do it yourself get your plumber mate to check everything to make sire its all good .don't just take a chance best of luck
 
Ric2013 -
The 4 tappings are used for 2 gravity primaries and 2 pumped pipes to rads. (Vent & Feed through those primaries)

Cheers Best, that was what I meant to say, but I got it wrong and probably confused the OP
 
Cheers guys. I'll just have a wood burner for now as I haven't got any roof space for tanks. I'm looking at oil filled rads for the future. Anyone used these??
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Reply to Solid fuel back boiler. in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

Creating content since 2001. Untold Media.

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Back
Top
AdBlock Detected

We get it, advertisements are annoying!

Sure, ad-blocking software does a great job at blocking ads, but it also blocks useful features of our website. For the best site experience please disable your AdBlocker.

I've Disabled AdBlock