Cold water tank almost boiling

Cat · Dec 12, 2017

Hi folks
I'm new & in need of advice.
Forgive my lack of understanding of plumbing.
This is the first time in over 20yrs that this has been so bad.
We have the cold water tank of our downstairs neighbour in our attic & often the pipes make noise but on Friday the noise became very loud with the pipes rattling & sounds of gurgling.
When I looked at the tank the water was hot (almost boiling am sure you could have boiled an egg in it!)
Neighbours were out.
I called my sons' Dad & he seemed to think neighbours, who have a solid fuel fire had left the vents open & the overflow had caused the tank in our attic to heat up.
My concerns are...
Is this normal?
If neighbours hadn't returned when they did could the tank in my attic have taken any more 'overflow' is there a danger?

I have bought my home but downstairs is still housing association, I had tried to get the tank out my attic in the past but to no avail, obviously I need to allow access.

Should I be concerned, do I need to contact the housing association?

Please put my mind at rest,reassure me, help me understand if this needs to be reported or not.
Thanks in advance for any advice...

Cat

jonnyswamp · Dec 12, 2017

I don't know much about solid fuel or the law regarding having someone else's f and e tank in my loft
But, if that solid fuel appliance over heats and melts/weakens the plastic tank, it's your ceiling (or worse) that gets damaged
It wouldn't be in my attic, irrespective of any law saying otherwise
Especially if it's positioned above a bed or cot (if it is, move them well away (another room)until this is resolved
And yes, definitely contact the housing association asap

Cat · Dec 12, 2017

Thank you for confirming I'm not over reacting....we're all adults now (kinda) & the tank is above the corner of our living room, so the pipes run up the back of an open cupboard, I had really worried about plastic tank getting hot
I will call the HA
Cat

SimonG · Dec 12, 2017

Should be a metal tank or at least rated for solid fuel. It should have a copper float and the overflow should be copper.

Cat · Dec 12, 2017

SimonG said:
Should be a metal tank or at least rated for solid fuel. It should have a copper float and the overflow should be copper.

This is it...plastic & ancient!

Ric2013 · Dec 12, 2017

A plastic cistern balanced across a couple of timber bearers (which is it looks like from that photo) is unacceptable - the cistern could collapse and dump hot water through the ceiling! A plastic cistern should be fully supported over the base (and as others have said, should not be used on uncontrolled solid fuel sources).

Best · Dec 12, 2017

Doesn't make any difference that you are all adults, - boiling water could scald or even kill an adult, even just from the shock of it!
I would get an engineers report immediately and then demand the HA sort this. The solid fuel appliance in your neighbours should have some means of heat leak for excess heat, plus other heat loss safety such as pump controlled by a pipe thermostat.
Hopefully you are in friendly relations with the neighbours and can persuade them to be careful in meantime and also that they also raise the issue with the HA

Cat · Dec 13, 2017

You guys are wonderful, so glad I found these forums, thank you for taking the time to address my concerns, I now know they are not unfounded
I contacted the HA yesterday
Cheers
Cat

jtsplumbing · Dec 13, 2017

You need to be very worried ,was a case a few years back where a tank in the loft over heated, collapsed and a child died,

Best · Dec 13, 2017

A woman also died when same thing happened. Cold tank filled with boiling water due to a faulty immersion stat.

Cat · Dec 13, 2017

This is scary stuff guys
I have as I stated above contacted the HA with details, now from previous experience of being a tenant for 20 yrs they ain't the quickest at attending to issues, I could tell you some tales ( e.g. 4 weeks without heating or hit water in the freezing Winter with a disabled son!!! )

Would you please tell me exactly what the issue is so I don't get brushed off with 'it's normal' or something other than it actually is.

What needs to be done to neighbours' boiler/system to prevent this from happening & make it safe?
Is it pipes/overflow, thermostat, rip the ruddy thing out & bring it up to modern day standards (I wish)

Cheers
Cat

steadyon · Dec 13, 2017

How about:

The Chief Executive

XYZ Housing Association

Dear Sir or Madam,

Situation Endangering Life

I live at (your address). The people living in the flat below me (give address), which I understand your association owns in whole or in part, have a solid fuel water heater, the expansion vessel for which is in the loft immediately above my property.

Recently, the expansion vessel (a small plastic tank of about 25 litres capacity) has been filling with very hot water, and this hot water has been overflowing to outside via the overflow pipe.

Having taken advice, I understand that:

1. This is likely to be caused by a fault in the usage or controls of the solid fuel heater.

2. The hot water may easily approach boiling point.

3. Neither the expansion tank nor the float which should control it meet the relevant standards for tanks / floats connected to solid fuel appliances. Both should be made of metal or other material capable of withstanding high temperatures for long periods of time.

4. There are recorded cases of deaths caused by such tanks collapsing and pouring scalding water onto the occupants of lower floors.

You will appreciate how worried I am having this device above my head. I would ask that you correct or remove the problem within the next few days. I would appreciate a letter by return post acknowledging receipt of my letter and providing a deadline by which the issue will be resolved.

Yours faithfully,

(Your name)

Cat · Dec 13, 2017

Cheers @steadyon
I've already emailed the HA but I'll put this into a letter to them as it outlines in better detail.
Thanks
Cat

sammathias · Dec 13, 2017

I would say they manually operate their heating pump when the water gets too hot from their solid fuel fire. Ancient way of doing it. Pump should be controlled to come on off a high limit saftey stat to disperce any extra heat.
Would definately get the to look into it. Been to loads of jobs where water is flooding through people ceilings because of this.

jonnyswamp · Dec 13, 2017

Looking at the photos, I'd say the tank strength is already compromised
It looks as though the sides (the longest sides) are beginning to flare out
Keep on the HA's case til you get results

dan_the_plumber · Dec 16, 2017

You need to contact the housing association. You would also be well advised to contact HETAS for advise, they are the governing body of solid fuel appliances and installations.

Ric2013 · Dec 16, 2017

I'll keep saying it, though, HETAS is not the only solid fuel competent-person scheme, though it likes to pretend it is. Unlike Gas Safe, it does not have the monopoly. OFTEC also qualifies people as competent to install solid fuel appliances, and I think there are other similar schemes.

dan_the_plumber · Dec 16, 2017

Ric2013 said:
I'll keep saying it, though, HETAS is not the only solid fuel competent-person scheme, though it likes to pretend it is. Unlike Gas Safe, it does not have the monopoly. OFTEC also qualifies people as competent to install solid fuel appliances, and I think there are other similar schemes.

Well I stand corrected. Thanks for that Ric

Stoney Ground · Dec 16, 2017

Cat said:
Cheers @steadyon
I've already emailed the HA but I'll put this into a letter to them as it outlines in better detail.
Thanks
Cat

I would copy the HSE on any communications and clearly show that you have to the HA.
You may also ask that the system is not used until it it is confirmed it is safe. When was the last time someone accessed your property to check the tank.

Pete E · Dec 25, 2017

sammathias said:
I would say they manually operate their heating pump when the water gets too hot from their solid fuel fire. Ancient way of doing it. Pump should be controlled to come on off a high limit saftey stat to disperce any extra heat.
Would definately get the to look into it. Been to loads of jobs where water is flooding through people ceilings because of this.

I am not a plumber but had a similar solid fuel system in a previous cottage.

The plumber who installed it said that one rad would effectively always be on and hot regardless of the stat and pump. As I understand it this was to effectively dump heat from the hot water tank when the central heating was off. I think the flow for this was nothing more than convection..

In addition there was an over flow into an expansion tank in the loft similar to what is being described here.

This would have been installed about 30years ago, so I have no idea what the codes of practice were then, but after reading this thread I am glad nothing serious ever happened...

Best · Dec 25, 2017

Pete E said:
I am not a plumber but had a similar solid fuel system in a previous cottage.

The plumber who installed it said that one rad would effectively always be on and hot regardless of the stat and pump. As I understand it this was to effectively dump heat from the hot water tank when the central heating was off. I think the flow for this was nothing more than convection..

In addition there was an over flow into an expansion tank in the loft similar to what is being described here.

This would have been installed about 30years ago, so I have no idea what the codes of practice were then, but after reading this thread I am glad nothing serious ever happened...

It is a heat leak radiator (to a certain minimum size for the solid fuel boiler MIs) to take some of the excess heat directly from the central heating pipes from boiler - the primaries, which are gravity fed.
It doesn't take the heat from the hot water tank, but from the source of the heat, the fire.
To be honest, if a solid fuel fire is really blazing, hot cylinder roasting and a pump fails, - one heat leak radiator isn't really going to take enough heat away.

Pete E · Dec 25, 2017

Best said:
It is a heat leak radiator (to a certain minimum size for the solid fuel boiler MIs) to take some of the excess heat directly from the central heating pipes from boiler - the primaries, which are gravity fed.
It doesn't take the heat from the hot water tank, but from the source of the heat, the fire.
To be honest, if a solid fuel fire is really blazing, hot cylinder roasting and a pump fails, - one heat leak radiator isn't really going to take enough heat away.

That sounds about right... as I remember the expansion and cold water tanks up in the loft were plastic as was the over flow piping..

The odd time we had a "boil over" it certainly got your attention quickly; would hate to be in the OP's position and would be following up the good advice already given with a solicitors letter to the HA if they did not act...

king of pipes · Dec 25, 2017

I would most definitely get this addressed the plastic feed and expansion tank does not meet current solid fuel regulations and i am sure your home insurance would not cover you for water damage caused by a failure of your neighbours system contained in your property , regards kop

Ric2013 · Dec 25, 2017

king of pipes said:
I would most definitely get this addressed the plastic feed and expansion tank does not meet current solid fuel regulations and i am sure your home insurance would not cover you for water damage caused by a failure of your neighbours system contained in your property , regards kop

If the insurance policy covers legal action, you'd probably be able to use this, but, agreed, you'd have to sue the neighbour.

PhoenixServices · Dec 27, 2017

Ask I can’t tell from the picture but is that a valve on the vent?

Cat · Jan 6, 2018

Sadly the terrifying saga continues, the housing association were sending out a gas engineer before Christmas, I have seen & heard nothing.
It's worse than ever before this morning, boiling water spilling over & through our ceiling
So I call yet again,get put through to their contact engineers stating the emergency to get a call half an hour later telling me our home is not on their system (ex tennant) I explain it's downstairs heating system that they are tennants & a complaint had been lodged by them also. He tells me he cannot attend!!!!
After further calls to HA they are now sending out their plumber...waiting whilst the tank boils
Am angry at the way this has not been handled.
I have a video of my boiling tank & my attic that is like a sauna filled with steam but it's too large to upload, I'll be making it very public.
Cat

Cat · Jan 6, 2018

Sadly the terrifying saga continues with downstairs heating, their cold water tank is in our attic & is boiling to overflow!!!
The housing association, Scottish Borders Housing Association, were sending out their contract gas engineer (PH Jones) way before Christmas, I have seen & heard nothing.
It's worse than ever before this morning, boiling water spilling over the tank & through our ceiling
So I call yet again,get put through to their contact engineers stating the emergency to get a call half an hour later telling me our home is not on their system (ex tennant) I explain it's downstairs heating system that they are tennants & a complaint had been lodged by them also. He tells me he cannot attend!!!!

After further calls to SBHA they are now sending out their plumber...waiting whilst the tank boils
Having been warned the tank of boiling water could come through our living room ceiling!!!
Am so worried & bloody fuming at the way this has been handled the video of the boiling already warped plastic tank is too big to post but if you have Facebook access I made my post public Catriona Hamilton
I am going to call my house insurance & which one if HETAS,OFTEC or Gas Safe should I get in touch with?
The HA plumber has finally arrived & is extending the overflow pipe? Says the thermostat downstairs is 'knackered' he also said it must have taken some heat to have warped the tank...nae Rubbish Sherlock!!!
Thank you all again for your help & advice.
Cat

ShaunCorbs · Jan 6, 2018

Make sure anyone working on the system is hetas registered (eg solid fuel qualified)

Cat · Jan 6, 2018

I have no idea,he's now gone. He is the HA plumber but not a heating engineer.
He said the HA will sort out downstairs & with any luck they may fit downstairs with a new system...they blooming better!
I am going to contact my house insurance to see what they can advise I may get emergency call out to prevent further damage & maybe legal advice.
I've attached photo of the new pipe extension...what do you think? Tank is well warped!!!
Cat

Ric2013 · Jan 6, 2018

HETAS and OFTEC both deal with solid fuel. May also be worth involving your council (environmental health? or housing officer? as ALL rentals need to meet certain standards and the council has a responsibility to police this). Definitely talk to your insurer - do you have legal cover on that?

Cat · Jan 6, 2018

Thanks looked at both to find out about regulation standards etc but see the cover England & Wales....am up in Scotland.
I am the owner (ex HA tenant) oooh environmental health might be a good call the HA housing officer for my area in the repair service woman's words "was a much use as a chocolate fireguard"
I called my insurance they won't cover water damage by neighbours tank but I spoke to their legal advice team they're calling me back Monday.
Just write a letter of complaint to Chief Ex of HA.
My sons' Dad is a tradesman he's contacting a qualified certified heating engineer for me to ask him to come look & advise me, I don't want to get told it's all 'fixed' & safe if it's not.
You guys have been so much help, I've learned....ya think I should take up a new career in plumbing?
Cat

ShaunCorbs · Jan 6, 2018

if you want to but there's a long road ahead

Best · Jan 6, 2018

Extending the copper vent pipe higher will not make any difference whatsoever if the solid fuel boiler is greatly overheating!
Needs the overheat problem fixed.
Only thing the vent being higher does on a primary vent is to prevent the vent putting water out when fire working at normal heat

sammathias · Jan 7, 2018

ShaunCorbs said:
Make sure anyone working on the system is hetas registered (eg solid fuel qualified)

hetas to work on the plumbing of a solid fuel system....?

Cat · Jan 17, 2018

***RESULT***
Update : at long last I have heard from SBHA, they have chased up the heating engineers,who have called to say replacement metal tank is on order & as soon as it's delivered they'll call to arrange access for work. I'm getting compensated for the water damage to my living room, they will also replace the damaged loft insulation and the postie just delivered the letter from SBHA's chief executive upholding my complaint and what they have done to address a number of issues I raised and she has apologised for the distress caused to my family & myself. There will be a new heating system installed downstairs by the end of March. Woohoo!
Once thank you all for your support & advice.
Cat

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