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Hi all.

Thanks in advance for any advice. I am not sure if I'm posting in correct place but I need a commercial boiler system.

Regarding me: complete novice, convert/renovate the odd building when opportunity allows, currently taken on my biggest job which is to convert a church into a care home with 23 ensuite wet rooms and heating. May consider electric storage heaters, but would also consider a central gas system. Current property size is 500m2 and will increase to around 750m2 once new mezzanine is in.

I will obviously be getting a pro to do the work, but I'm trying to figure out suspected boiler sizes and cost of boilers. I have asked a couple of engineers but they wont seem to commit to giving these details and don't explain why. They keep advising they will quote on the work when I am ready to start the job, which i suspect will be in 6 months. I suspect they are too busy. But I do need to work on my costings before starting the job.

I have spoken to a friend who is a plumber who has not done this scale of work and he thought I would need 2 boilers working alongside each other, incase one was to fail, and to cater for the frailty of the residents who will be living there. But he is uncertain.

If I may ask your expertise:

1. What size boiler(s) would you recommend?

2. What sort of heating would you propose? Electric storage heaters or radiators working via boiler? I may need to consider underfloor heating on the mezzanine in view of small room sizes.

3. Would there be a big price saving by purchasing a 2nd hand boiler?

Thanks in advance for any advice, and apologies if I have not provided you with obvious details.

Max
 
Point 4 which I forgot to ask was:
4. How do I keep the water pressure equal if multiple wet rooms are being used at once? And The size of the tank required

Thanks again
 
Two or more boilers needed
Large hot water cylinders
A booster pump and storage tanks for cold water

You need to have the system designed professionally, nobody can guess at sizes.
 
I sometimes wonder if some of the posts on here are actually real.

Second hand boiler lol.

If it is real then it needs professional design.
 
I can just imagine the costs and hassle when a DIYer installs a system like this from internet "gossip" and installs a system themselves ....

The costs and upheaval to put right would be huge, and in this case the loss of revenue could be catastrophic for a business.
 
Wow your swimming in deep water here, Fk this up and you will be spending a Holiday near me (Dartmoor) This is a project for a commercial company and your looking at a installation costing tens of thousands, to even think about installing second-hand equipment on a job like this is utter madness !! Mate you haven't a clue walk away from this one.
 
a lot of work in this and needs to be designed will cost thousands alon for the rads as they will have to be LST. job fort the big boys methinks who do this day in day out. are you even commercial ticketed
 
Having read the above , hopefully you now know why the other engineers wouldnt commit .

Huge job
 
Hi
this isn’t a job, even a large commercial company would price ( yet)
All jobs like that are designed by heating consultants. They will design it, to work to the requirements needed and guarantee it will work.
Installers will then price against each other following the design .

Last nursing home I did that size was 12 years ago. Mechanical services costs were over £700,000.+ vat then. You can’t do it on the cheap, because local council require it to meet performance and safety standards.
Just to make you aware of some numbers here.
1. 23 shower rooms would require a system that can store and distribute 350 litres a minute of just hot water. That’s 21,000 litres an hour! Never mind space heating.
I’m sure this is a wind up post, but if it’s not. Good luck
 
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Yikes! Scary!

Thank you very much to all who have provided responses. Especially scottD and chalked - you've given me a bit of insight.

I am not planning on doing the work myself but I do need a bit of education on these items.

Definitely not a wind up. I am a one man band but I'm not shy of the work or of learning. And I recognise things need to be done right first time. And if I walked away the first time I came across a big problem - well.... I certainly wouldn't be considering this job!

Second hand boiler being considered as a punt. I see heavy duty boilers advertised on eBay and wonder if I should pay a fraction of the cost in the hope I may save money somewhere down the line. If not, I'll have a spare commercial boiler for someone who wants it.

Not quite sure why someone would waste time posting a fake unreal posts but if there are any engineers that want to see the job and approved council plans, and perhaps even provide a quote - Jobs in Nuneaton. Building refs should be done in4 weeks. Please send email address or ask for my number and I'll be happy to oblige.
 
Hi again.
We do get wind ups on here, so you can understand the mistrust on such a complicated job.

Forget second hand boilers. That’s a small percentage of the supply/ install cost. And will bite you back.
Nursing homes come under very close scrutiny in the plumbing and heating departments. There are lots of things to take into account.
Legonella avoidance. This means circulating water above the temperature to kill it and reducing the temp to prevent scalding at every outlet. This also on a lager install needs a monitoring system to prove ( for insurance) that it’s been met.
Heat emitters.
Normal radiators can’t be used as the surface temperature is too high ( electric storage is also a no go) so it’s either low surface temp rads or underfloor heating. Even underfloor has to be designed very carefully , to keep,a low floor temp.

I’m not even scratching the surface here. I’m just trying to point out that the ONLY option is get the system professionally designed. Not by a plumber or heating engineer. This will not cover you if there is a design fault that causes a death. I would expect it to cost around the £4-6000 for this. If you can’t afford that , you can’t afford the project and will waste a lot of hard earned.
 
Mate this is not a job to be taken on by a one man band, unless you have a very healthy bank balance (Lots of Ks in it) this is a project for a company that specialises in these sort of jobs. You need to walk away from this one, HE are all over these jobs like a rash, mistakes can cost thousands not to mention lengthy prison sentence if anything should happen, And to be honest from what you are saying I don't think you have the experience to even manage a job like this, Just step back and think of the consequences if it caught fire, some gets scalded, dies of hyperthermia because you have got the heat calc's wrong ! who's door do you think they will be knocking on ?? Know your limitations .
 
Thanks Chalked.

I am aware of the legionella issue already. But your info on surface temp has been really informative. Just read the relevant HSE and NHS documents and it seems 43 degrees is the magic number. And I understand all pipes carrying hotter water will need to be covered.

I presume the easy option would be to limit the boiler to 43 degrees, but I'm guessing bacterial colonisation/other items becomes the issue here?

I have also been considering the type of emitter to use and would value any further advice. It seems the safest option would be underfloor heating (despite me initially wanting to avoid this for maintainence purposes) as there is no exposed pipes, and would free up wall space at the same time. Other than surface temp, is there anything else with this emitter I should be considering? I am guessing maintainence will be an issue.

JTS plumbing - thanks for the replies, despite them being somewhat blunt, incessantly negative and somewhat rude. Please read my first post again.... I will be getting professionals in to do the job. The problem I have is that I have met a lot of companies who claim they can do this job, but who I doubt. I'm here to learn so I know what I am talking about when meeting people and to get things correct first time round. Regarding my ability to complete this job, thanks for your concern, but please let me worry about that. I'm the sort of guy that wakes up at 5am to do his research to avoid getting it wrong. I already run and act as provider manager for 3 regulated activities and it doesn't phase me. Please find me one person who does it for one and doesn't call that stressful! I don't doubt myself.... You shouldn't either. Yes, this will be my first care home venture, but perhaps we should be trying to get through today with a tad more optimism.
 
Another bit of advice if I may request it please:

Is there a specific qualification that I should be asking the engineers to hold, which will make it easier for me to recognise who may be able to complete this sort of work accurately?

Thanks again in advance.
 
Hi
Everyone on here has optimism and the sarcasm is hopefully meant to point you in the right direction. Weather you accept the bluntness of someone’s take on it, is up to you.. but we are trying to get to to see what is involved.
Don’t trust a contractor that will take this on without detail plans. ( unless they pay to have plans that guarantee performance and safety).
So again, get a consultant involved, don’t micromanage.
 
You will need very high public liability insurance if you are taking this on think total rebuild costs so will need to be in the 10s of millions
 
I do recognise the gravity of the job at hand. I can assure you of that. I will be asking a consultants advice. thanks again for the input.

JTS : my apologies for the early morning rant. I clearly needed more sleep
 
Sorry If I seem to come across Blunt and somewhat Rude , I'm old school North country and we tend to speak how we see things and don't beat about the bush, Reading the posts and questions you are asking and Its only my opinion and take it which ever way you want, and regardless what other actives your running, You don't know enough about what is required for this project, to even contemplate using second-hand equipment is madness, the limit of your knowledge is obvious when to think that the way to control the buildings temperature is to run the boilers at 43 degrees, as for what questions you should be asking about what engineers to employ NUTS, this job need to be given to a large Commercial outfit, and I say again! My opinion only, and like it or not you are out of your depth leave it to the professional's .
 
I'd be more interested in experience rather than quals.
I'd be asking to see similar sized projects and speak to the customers.
 
Just a point I'd like to make. Residents in a Care Home are there for care. Few of them would be capable of or permitted to shower alone. Each day a team of carers will work through the morning, helping residents to wash and dress. I doubt a home this size would ever have even 4 showers running simultaneously, with affordable staffing levels.
 
wether there would be 4 or 23 showers running at the same time the points is the system would have to capable of running all the systems the laundry the kitchen. in a care home with 23 rooms the laundry will probably be running all day.
 
Correct gasmk1. We will have a dedicated laundry room with a commercial dryer and washing machine likely to be used all day.

Gpbeck - whilst this will be a "care home" - I am hoping to make it kind of like a rehab unit, so step down beds. It'll mean residents will be commissioned to stay for a maximum of 6-8 weeks only. But this will mean a lot of them will be able-bodied during their stay with us.

I'm guessing 40-50% of the rooms may use the showers at any one time, with kitchen and laundry room needing heating at any one time.
 
With commercial systems always plan for max demand/ fully use

So if you have 10 showers work it out on max demand for 10 showers
 
Run a boiler at 43 degrees. The heat loss through pipework alone from boiler to thurthest draw off will be massive. Indeed time for a pen pusher to design system layout etc.
45kw combi sgould do the trick.
 
I don't know about boilers but with my limited understanding, it will need to be the pipe work and emitter surfaces that are maximum 43degrees. I'm guessing the boiler will deliver a higher temperature.

I can't imagine 45kw combi being able to manage this size of job. But as advised by others, I'll let the experts figure that one out
 
I don't know about boilers but with my limited understanding, it will need to be the pipe work and emitter surfaces that are maximum 43degrees. I'm guessing the boiler will deliver a higher temperature.

I can't imagine 45kw combi being able to manage this size of job. But as advised by others, I'll let the experts figure that one out

he was joking :D
 
And there was me getting ready to buy my 45 kW boiler in preparation

If I were you, I wouldn't be buying or supplying ANYTHING for the heating - get a single source installer to design, supply and install, then they will carry all the risk.
 
That's a good point Murdoch99.

Whale: it's in Nuneaton in Warwickshire. I'd be interested in speaking to you if it's an area you would consider. Is there a way of private messaging me? Alternatively, can you provide a contact number/email.
 
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