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Heat/spillage problem

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Robert Tyrrell

Robert Tyrrell

Gas Engineer
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Last year I fitted an inset gas fire and when I left it was all working fine but I had a call to go and look at it yesterday and noted that the surround was extremely hot just above the fire and, on inspection, found evidence of heat build up on the fire itself (discoloured paint above the spillage test point).
I did another spillage test that worked fine with a smoke pen, and there was no CO leakage around the fire.
The flue is the precast block type with the rectangular opening and the fire is a Flavel Windsor HE MKll.
As the original spillage test was ok, I'm mainly concerned about the heat transfer to the surround, and to the top of the fire, especially as the MI says that the deflector (Wasn't there in the first place) should be removed if fitting to a precast flue.
When I look a the image of the flue block (Front at the bottom of the image), it looks as though the heat is hitting the flue block and surround instead of going up[ the flue.
Can anyone explain this to me? And, more importantly, what my actions might be at this point?

Screen Shot 2018-02-21 at 08.08.28.png
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What's with the space between the block and wall ?

Also is that insulation??
 
I dont fit many gas fires and the ones I have fitted have been as a replacement - just like this one.
All the flues have been much the same as the photo so I presumed that they were correct as there was a fire installed beforehand; working and checked/serviced regularly.
Looks as though I'll have to tel them the whole surround needs to come out and get the started block in then :)

I suppose that the heat transfer is probably due to the lack of the starter block then.
 
Shaun is absolutely spot on there. Where is the starter block? And that gap behind the flue block is of great concern as products of combustion can get into the cavity could spill anywhere in the property. It is an ID situation & needs capping, warning notice attached and the flue rectifying I'm afraid to say.
 
Robert Tyrrell said:
I dont fit many gas fires and the ones I have fitted have been as a replacement - just like this one.
All the flues have been much the same as the photo so I presumed that they were correct as there was a fire installed beforehand; working and checked/serviced regularly.
Looks as though I'll have to tel them the whole surround needs to come out and get the started block in then :)

I suppose that the heat transfer is probably due to the lack of the starter block then.
Click to expand...

I would wait for a few more people to comment as I'm not 100% on fires (hate the things)
 
Darren Jackson said:
Please go back and ID the fire mate. It should never have been fitted to an incomplete flue. Sorry for bleating on about it & I wish not to come across as unfriendly, but it is your responsibility, and quite frankly you should have known better my friend!
Click to expand...
Yes, I should have - No excuse I know but I was trying to fit this with two old people in the room, one of whom has dementia, plus their daughter, and as I said, I don't fit many. It's already disconnected and capped off. Just don't understand why it was ok when fitted.
 
Darren Jackson said:
We all have made mistakes Robert, It takes a big man to hold your hands up and admit it. I take my flat cap off to you.
Click to expand...
And a bigger one to correct them afterwards I fitted one of these a couple of years ago mate on a standard flue. Passed evening all ok. Went back the next year as reports fire front very hot at top. Found a slow drawing flue. So had chimney swept as no cowl. Sweep pulled out a massive jackdaws nest that had been there for years. Could it be a blockage or collapse looking at the state of the flue. Fill that gap as well as that might be the cause??? but I have been wrong in the past.
 
I think that I'll be taking the surround out myself, fitting a starter block and then putting it all back together.
I didn't charge them in the first place as the women was very ill and passed away a few weeks afterwards.
 
Robert Tyrrell said:
I think that I'll be taking the surround out myself, fitting a starter block and then putting it all back together.
I didn't charge them in the first place as the women was very ill and passed away a few weeks afterwards.
Click to expand...

Do you know a general builder ?
 
Just been researching this a bit an this is the type of flue that's installed so the image of the underneath of the flue block is most likely what these lot refer to as a 'Cover Block'.
I think that I might tell them to get a chimney sweep in before I start removing the surround as it might just be a blockage (He says hopefully) especially as this was initially about a supposed spillage problem, and I did find part of a wasps nest along with a load of cobwebs, in the ridge terminal.
The metal part of the flue was clear so I didn't think that there might be a blockage further down!
I've taken out the connection between the exit block and the terminal so I might go back and smoke test it without that bit attached to check if there's a blockage somewhere.
Would that explain the heat build up in the surround, just above the fire?

Screen Shot 2018-02-21 at 15.17.27.png
 
Easy way to tell if it's right get a torch and look up if it reduces eg like your starter block then it's probably fine and just need a sweep (which I don't think it is) if it's straight up no reduced it's wrong
 
Just to add to your information lots of houses built in the 70s in and around Saltash (Cornwall) same builder fitted with outset fire, but when people asked about new fires BG condemned the flues, to close to the finished plaster the wall up through the lounge and above bedroom got so hot you couldn't keep your hand on it ,
 
Darren Jackson said:
I do not think that is a starter block mate. It is hard to tell in the picture but it does not look tapered to me. It looks like it had one at some point with the mortar stains on the underneath of it.
Click to expand...
I was thinking the as well but if it did have one at some point that would've made the catchment extremely short, I would have thought.
 
jtsplumbing said:
Just to add to your information lots of houses built in the 70s in and around Saltash (Cornwall) same builder fitted with outset fire, but when people asked about new fires BG condemned the flues, to close to the finished plaster the wall up through the lounge and above bedroom got so hot you couldn't keep your hand on it ,
Click to expand...
I don't think that's the problem here as it was just the surround getting hot, and only a little way up as well, even when I had the fire on full.
 
unfortunately it was never right in the first place. may have passed original spillage but the gap between the brick and wall is a nono as others have mentioned. also precast you must have a minimum of 3 starter blocks before the tapered block! always learning. should have learnt that on your acs.
 
Rober
Robert Tyrrell said:
Just been researching this a bit an this is the type of flue that's installed so the image of the underneath of the flue block is most likely what these lot refer to as a 'Cover Block'.
I think that I might tell them to get a chimney sweep in before I start removing the surround as it might just be a blockage (He says hopefully) especially as this was initially about a supposed spillage problem, and I did find part of a wasps nest along with a load of cobwebs, in the ridge terminal.
The metal part of the flue was clear so I didn't think that there might be a blockage further down!
I've taken out the connection between the exit block and the terminal so I might go back and smoke test it without that bit attached to check if there's a blockage somewhere.
Would that explain the heat build up in the surround, just above the fire?

View attachment 32942
Click to expand...

Are you still intending to fit a starter block?
The install is definitely wrong. The problem us not so much products escaping into wall, as much as air being entrained into flue. This will reduce the effectiveness (pull) and cool the POC"s.

TBH, as you did not charge for the install (weird, frankly), I would leave it alone. If you try to fit starter blocks,you will have to source the same make.
 
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