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Last year, having got a split coil in my loft based hot water tank, and with an operation planned 3 days later, I decided to use one of the large online firms to put a combi in the next day. They charged £2800 for the boiler, with "free fitting" but as I was going for a conversion from a system to a combi they charged £700 for a "conversion pack". They also supplied a magnet filter and a wireless "smart" thermostat.

While I feel the boiler is great, I really don't understand what the conversion in the loft involved other than a bit of pipework and removing the hot water cylinder and the cold water tank. They simply did what looks like rough pipework in the loft to join the gaps left by removing the tanks. The only insulation they put on the pipes is lagging that was already in there on the pipes around the tanks. Because they have just joined the pipes up in the loft, it seems to me to be quite wasteful and means that the water to the taps has to go all the way from the boiler, through the house, into the loft and back into the house, taking around 30 seconds to a minute to get hot water in the bathroom (less than 3 foot from the boiler).

My question is, is the price I paid fair or too high, and would you expect them to do more for the pipework during a conversion. It really seems like a waste to have the water go all round the house for a 3 foot trip to the tap?

i also feel that charging £700 for a conversion that involved a lad in the loft for 2 hours and a bit of pipes seems too much, when my mum had hers done by a local fitter all the pipes were altered, it took 3 days and it seems a much better job. My job took 2 lads less than 4 hours.

Thanks in advance.

Jeff
 
You waited a bit long to question it since you had the work done last year ???

Also nothing's free there would be the installation in that 2.8k

What boiler did you get / have
 
Last year, having got a split coil in my loft based hot water tank, and with an operation planned 3 days later, I decided to use one of the large online firms to put a combi in the next day. They charged £2800 for the boiler, with "free fitting" but as I was going for a conversion from a system to a combi they charged £700 for a "conversion pack". They also supplied a magnet filter and a wireless "smart" thermostat.

While I feel the boiler is great, I really don't understand what the conversion in the loft involved other than a bit of pipework and removing the hot water cylinder and the cold water tank. They simply did what looks like rough pipework in the loft to join the gaps left by removing the tanks. The only insulation they put on the pipes is lagging that was already in there on the pipes around the tanks. Because they have just joined the pipes up in the loft, it seems to me to be quite wasteful and means that the water to the taps has to go all the way from the boiler, through the house, into the loft and back into the house, taking around 30 seconds to a minute to get hot water in the bathroom (less than 3 foot from the boiler).

My question is, is the price I paid fair or too high, and would you expect them to do more for the pipework during a conversion. It really seems like a waste to have the water go all round the house for a 3 foot trip to the tap?

i also feel that charging £700 for a conversion that involved a lad in the loft for 2 hours and a bit of pipes seems too much, when my mum had hers done by a local fitter all the pipes were altered, it took 3 days and it seems a much better job. My job took 2 lads less than 4 hours.

Thanks in advance.

Jeff
It sounds to me you know the answer already if your not out of time legally and paid by credit card then have a go
 
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It sounds to me you know the answer already if your not out of time legally and paid by credit card then have a go
My gut tells me it was too much and a ropey conversion, but I have know idea if I am correct or not. Is there anything you could add, do the building regs or gas rules say anything that would help me? Any advice or opinions would really help me. Thanks :)
 
Bit late now I am afraid it all works you paid in full far as they are concerned your satisfied , time and time again I have been behind the big boys and cringe at what I see. Kop
 
Bit late now I am afraid it all works you paid in full far as they are concerned your satisfied , time and time again I have been behind the big boys and cringe at what I see. Kop
I paid with a credit card and am happy to sue the card and boiler company if I have to. By joining the pipes together in the loft and doing nothing much more have they broken any rules are regulations, or is it just something you'd consider "shoddy"?
 
My gut tells me it was too much and a ropey conversion, but I have know idea if I am correct or not. Is there anything you could add, do the building regs or gas rules say anything that would help me? Any advice or opinions would really help me. Thanks :)
Look my mrs is a barrister and we see too many people go by that have maybe been wronged and loose months and even years trying to get back I would just leave it and walk on even we do when we are best placed to destroy an errant small business life is sometimes too short IMHO
 
Look my mrs is a barrister and we see too many people go by that have maybe been wronged and loose months and even years trying to get back I would just leave it and walk on even we do when we are best placed to destroy an errant small business life is sometimes too short IMHO

I actually sue people as part of my work and as it is less than £10k it is a small claim meaning no costs other than the court fee. It wouldn't cost me a wink of sleep to deal with this, as it is my bread and butter.

I guess, i'm just curious as to if they have done anything technically wrong rules wise?
 
It saves time the installation team will have had a set amount of time to install the system they are pushed to the limit so obviously corners will be cut, broken any rules hmmmm hard to prove if you feel hard done by complain but make sure you list the points your not happy about and why you feel it's below standard. Good luck kop
 
It saves time the installation team will have had a set amount of time to install the system they are pushed to the limit so obviously corners will be cut, broken any rules hmmmm hard to prove if you feel hard done by complain but make sure you list the points your not happy about and why you feel it's below standard. Good luck kop

Thanks for the reply. At a rough guess, what would you expect the "fair" labour charge to be for a job at such a low standard. The boiler wholesales at £1200 and the add ons probably cost £200 in all.
 
I actually sue people as part of my work and as it is less than £10k it is a small claim meaning no costs other than the court fee. It wouldn't cost me a wink of sleep to deal with this, as it is my bread and butter.

I guess, i'm just curious as to if they have done anything technically wrong rules wise?
Then get a professional in to write a report pay them and go to court as you do it for a living I AM OUT
 
What was agreed at the time? Was it reasonable to expect a complete new hot water system to best practice standards, or was your plumber clearly expected to do what was reasonable without ripping up all the floors and perhaps some walls too?
Sometimes as a plumber you have to recognise what a customer needs and is willing to pay.
To be honest, if a customer came back to me after a year and said actually they had wanted and expected a full new system and I'd only given a modification, my thought would be that a year ago they wanted the former and now the circumstances had changed and they were ready for the latter, but expect me to pay for it.
How about you show us some photos of the work and we get a feeling of the quality or lack thereof? That would be more useful really.
 
What was agreed at the time? Was it reasonable to expect a complete new hot water system to best practice standards, or was your plumber clearly expected to do what was reasonable without ripping up all the floors and perhaps some walls too?
Sometimes as a plumber you have to recognise what a customer needs and is willing to pay.
To be honest, if a customer came back to me after a year and said actually they had wanted and expected a full new system and I'd only given a modification, my thought would be that a year ago they wanted the former and now the circumstances had changed and they were ready for the latter, but expect me to pay for it.
How about you show us some photos of the work and we get a feeling of the quality or lack thereof? That would be more useful really.
Disclosing info prior to court action can predudice a bona fide legal case so as advised get a proper report done as of course you should know being a professional legal eagle of course mr tibbs was in an American film from yonks ago when the heat was on
 
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As above its hard to say, I would recommend you get a independent report done and go from there. Kop
 
Thanks for the replies. Would you recommend I get a report from a gas fitter/plumber or from some type of surveyor? Is there a specific type of witness recommended for this?

As for the what was expected, that is a good question. They advertised the fitting as free, which was untrue, and they advertised a "Conversion Pack" to take it from a system boiler to a combi, and all I can see has been done is some pipes joined roughly in the loft. I would suggest that having charged £700 for a conversion pack, it is reasonable to expect at least some works to change the pipework. I would say that given the fact that they gave me less than 10 hours total labour and charged £2,000 or so more than the parts cost, that there is something not quite right.

I have previously had them out as 2 radiators didn't heat up and I have also sent them a letter in April to complain and have had no reply. I haven't pushed it as I have been ill, so please don't think I have left it a year and then complained.
 
Thanks for the replies. Would you recommend I get a report from a gas fitter/plumber or from some type of surveyor? Is there a specific type of witness recommended for this?

As for the what was expected, that is a good question. They advertised the fitting as free, which was untrue, and they advertised a "Conversion Pack" to take it from a system boiler to a combi, and all I can see has been done is some pipes joined roughly in the loft. I would suggest that having charged £700 for a conversion pack, it is reasonable to expect at least some works to change the pipework. I would say that given the fact that they gave me less than 10 hours total labour and charged £2,000 or so more than the parts cost, that there is something not quite right.

I have previously had them out as 2 radiators didn't heat up and I have also sent them a letter in April to complain and have had no reply. I haven't pushed it as I have been ill, so please don't think I have left it a year and then complained.
It does not matter about why you have not pushed it you may well be out of time anyway
 
I'd be asking what they meant by a conversion pack.

They advertised the fitting as free, which was untrue
You believed someone would come and fit a boiler for free and didn't realise the plumber's wages came out of the mark-up made on the boiler, yet you claim to be some form of solicitor. You are also missing the costs of parts, filters, controls, water treatment, etc., none of which are given to plumbers for free. This is getting weird. I'm also out on this part of the question.

What IS a good question is who would be best to get a report from. Not sure if Building Control would be a good start or what they might be willing/able to do at this stage?

Seriously though, I expect every plumber in the world will say they would have done it differently, however well or badly the work was done.
 
Disclosing info prior to court action can predudice a bona fide legal case so as advised get a proper report done as of course you should know being a professional legal eagle of course mr tibbs was in an American film from yonks ago when the heat was on

Nobody ever gets the reference. Great film. "They call me Mr Tibbs" is a fantastic line, Poitier was great in that one.
 
It does not matter about why you have not pushed it you may well be out of time anyway

6 years to sue on a basic contract and I am at 10 months. being timed out isn't an issue. I'm most interested in if it is acceptable under the current rules and regs to just connect a few pipes in the loft. Other than that, most of my argument is that their advertising was grossly misleading and the standard was not at the level required by the CRA 2015.
 
I'd be asking what they meant by a conversion pack.


You believed someone would come and fit a boiler for free and didn't realise the plumber's wages came out of the mark-up made on the boiler, yet you claim to be some form of solicitor. You are also missing the costs of parts, filters, controls, water treatment, etc., none of which are given to plumbers for free. This is getting weird. I'm also out on this part of the question.

What IS a good question is who would be best to get a report from. Not sure if Building Control would be a good start or what they might be willing/able to do at this stage?

Seriously though, I expect every plumber in the world will say they would have done it differently, however well or badly the work was done.

I'm in no way a lawyer. I just work for a small business in a bad industry and have ended up doing a lot of bog standard claims over the years. Going to court on a small claim isn't an issue for me. I know that may seem arrogant, but it is part of my job and is kind of second nature to me. I actually fix circuit boards and printers most of the time.

In 2018, claiming free fitting, then charging for a conversion pack that doesn't really exist is completely prohibited behaviour when dealing with consumers. I was just hoping the work was also prohibited by some obscure regulation. I will call building control on Monday, I think you are right suggesting them. They may refer to gas safe who sign it off by proxy for them maybe?

Thanks for the help.
 
You could discuss the length of dead leg from combi to hot tap and the time it takes for a tap to run hot (Water Regulations), but, as I said, was it reasonable to expect an adaptation to comply when quite possibly the original system did not comply either.

Your Water Board (i.e. whatever bloodsucking private company gets to make a profit from a basic human need in your area) might inspect and comment, as they do have a duty to ensure the public water is not wasted, misused, unduly consumed, contaminated, or erroneously metered.
 
In 2018, claiming free fitting (. . .) is completely prohibited behaviour when dealing with consumers.
I just don't get why you chose that firm then instead of reporting to the ASA and moving swiftly on?

I don't think it's arrogant. As you say, it's what you're used to doing. I probably could have done your job; it wasn't a career path I chose. You could probably do mine if your health permitted; you chose something else. No offence taken.
 
I just don't get why you chose that firm then instead of reporting to the ASA and moving swiftly on?

Because I was having a tumour removed my colon 2 days later, I had a baby at home and my water was brown and hot water was leaking to my garden and I just needed a boiler there and then and they were there. It was a decision brought about by urgency. It appeals to vulnerable consumers. For that day I was desperate and just went with the offer I saw.
 
You could discuss the length of dead leg from combi to hot tap and the time it takes for a tap to run hot (Water Regulations), but, as I said, was it reasonable to expect an adaptation to comply when quite possibly the original system did not comply either.

Your Water Board (i.e. whatever bloodsucking private company gets to make a profit from a basic human need in your area) might inspect and comment, as they do have a duty to ensure the public water is not wasted, misused, unduly consumed, contaminated, or erroneously metered.

The distance from the boiler to the bathroom tap is around 3 feet. The water goes all the way around the house. probably 35 metres at least? Takes a minute to come out hot at a good flow. What is the name of the regulation and what does it mean to an idiot like me. Sorry i really don't know much about these things. Thank you so much for the advice.

EDIT: Do you mean this law? The Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999

2) No water fitting shall be installed, connected, arranged or used in such a manner that it causes or is likely to cause–

(i)waste, misuse, undue consumption or contamination of water supplied by a water undertaker;
 
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You’re going to really struggle to prove or disprove anything. It will all come down to contract. You will hide behind your dissatisfaction they will hide behind the vagueness of the quote if nothing was formally agreed. I would just move on I for one would not be changing pipework after a year if the system has been working for that period
 
I think we all agree your system could have been fitted to a higher standard but as i have said it's been fitted a year and it works all be it inefficiently, my advice you could try and make a claim against the company(trading standards route ) but why cause yourself more stress and worry after what you have been through, better to learn from your misfortune and employ a local respected gas safe company to improve what you have, reading between the lines you panicked when your system went down a combi was not the right choice but it got you through the bad situation at the time take some professional advice and it's then your choice which way you go. Regards kop
 
The problem I see. Is that you accepted a price. The amount of work is irrelevant.
Two restaurants can charge differing amounts for the same meal.
 
The problem I see. Is that you accepted a price. The amount of work is irrelevant.
Two restaurants can charge differing amounts for the same meal.

Because of the provisions of the 2015 CRA and the 2008 Consumer Protection from unfair Trading Regulations that isn't true, especially when they made claims that are patently likely to be misleading. Businesses are very limited in what they can say to consumers now and standards and prices are regulated in a way by those acts.
 
Because of the provisions of the 2015 CRA and the 2008 Consumer Protection from unfair Trading Regulations that isn't true, especially when they made claims that are patently likely to be misleading. Businesses are very limited in what they can say to consumers now and standards and prices are regulated in a way by those acts.
I think a lawyers forum is better for you quoting chaper and verse about stuff we dont know about is probably just to inflate your own ego jog on
 
I think a lawyers forum is better for you quoting chaper and verse about stuff we dont know about is probably just to inflate your own ego jog on

You need to jog on, your posts have been utterly pointless and are clearly designed to inflate your already inflated post count.
Would you ladies kindly settle this outside with your handbags. :)
 
Now now lads
 
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