Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipes

[cammy0102]

Hi guys,
After some quick advice as my builder's plumber is about to finish hte job.

Basically I had a leak in the central heating system (it's all brand new and the combi boiler started losing water pressure few months ago and it gradually got worse) after months of looking for it, I think tey'v efound the issue. It was a small leak under the bath and yesterday when they removed the bath and dug out to expose the pipes they foudn the leak.

The leak was in a T junction of one of the big copper pipes (22mm I think) and the drain (to empty water in central heating pipes) going outside the bathroom/house. This new plumber used by my builder/contractor yesterday created this apparatus to connect a compression meter and left it overnight. This morning we found there was no pressure loss in the combi boiler (phew!) and the plumber said the compression test passed. So we know that small leak was what was causing the loss in water pressure.

Anyway this morning the plumber left pretty much all of the apparatus but I am not entirely happy with it so wanted hear expert opinion. There are lots of joints in there (probalby 5,6) plus he's got joints going from big diameter pipe (probably 22mm) to small diameter copper pipe (probably 15mm) back to big diameter pipe. I've read that leaks are likely to happen in joints and the more joints you have surely the more chance of future leaks?

What do you think of this work? See picture attached. You can see how it was before and how it is now.
I probably prefer it to one straight pipe like before (but without the leak obviously)

Thanks guys.





http://*********/a/rPVWp

 

[joni os]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Pipe straight through in 22 mm,with slip coupling, and put drain off at rad valve where any future plumber can find it. Get rid of plastic fitting.Sheath pipe to allow movement. Original leak probably caused by restriction of tee piece in screed.

 

[cammy0102]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Pipe straight through in 22 mm,with slip coupling, and put drain off at rad valve where any future plumber can find it. Get rid of plastic fitting.Sheath pipe to allow movement. Original leak probably caused by restriction of tee piece in screed.

Thanks Joni. I told my main builder/contractor and I think he had a chat to the plumber (they are Czech) and he said he's happy with it and he'll take any responsibility if there are any future leaks.
They aer going to insulate all teh copper pipes (it looks like some of the pipes weren't insulated previously) and fill it with cement.
Yes it's a bit frustrating but the builder has given me his gurantee. What does the plastic bit do?

 

[Best]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

All brand new work, - you said?? Looks very poor DIY job. Those pipes should have been insulated to begin with.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

i agree poor effort, also to insulate correctly they would have to dig up more than is there. all the copper needs protecting from the concrete, not just the small section shown.

 

[SimonG]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

And the 15mm valve is not rated for central heating.

 

[woodsy]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

If it's all buried as it looks just in concrete then prepare for many leaks in the coming years as concrete attacks copper and rots it over time.

 

[Vee]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

If it's all buried as it looks just in concrete then prepare for many leaks in the coming years as concrete attacks copper and rots it over time.

Has either of these guys ever heard of the Building Regulations?

 

[Vee]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

If it's all buried as it looks just in concrete then prepare for many leaks in the coming years as concrete attacks copper and rots it over time.

Have either of these guide heard of the Building Regulations? :banghead:

 

[king of pipes]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Poor effort I'm afraid alot of things wrong there

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

is he gas safe and also have you seen/ check he is ?

also is the benchmark completed in the back of the instruction book?

also any pics of the boiler install?

 

[Chalked]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

The pipework ( new and existing) is terrible. No insulation, nothing to stop corrosion. That's just the pipework!
Where's your damp proof membrane, where's the floor insulation? Your guarantee is not worth anything.
I would get building control to have a look at this, as your looking at all sorts of problems in the future.

 

[Chalked]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

The pipework ( new and existing) is terrible. No insulation, nothing to stop corrosion. That's just the pipework!
Where's your damp proof membrane, where's the floor insulation? Your guarantee is not worth anything.
I would get building control to have a look at this, as your looking at all sorts of problems in the future.

 

[cammy0102]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Double post

 

[cammy0102]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Guys, thanks for the replies but I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. I did a full refurbishment as soon as I bought the flat about a year and half ago. At the time I had no idea about anything building related but I've learnt quite a lot (and important lesson not to trust most tradesmen and always keep an eye on them) but there's still a lot I don't know. I relied on my builder to do the right thing and whilst I think he's a good guy (he's sent his men around numerous times to fix things) he wasn't supervising them.

I dont' think the the plumbers he's used are gas certified. I believe the boiler installation was done by a separate Gas engineer and I've already got a gas safety certificate for that. Anyway I'm going to get an annual boiler service done by a British gas engineer soon so I'll ask him about the installation.

I go the plumber to dig out and expose the pipes in the bathroom and insulate all of it before adding concrete. I don't know if rest of the pipes that's under concrete (in the kitchen and part of the living room) are insulated or not but when I spoke to the plumber who did the work originally, he said he did insulate them but not sure what happened in the bathroom. He said he did insulate the pipes in teh bathroom and someone else has removed the sleeves.

It appears there's no damp proof membrane or insulation installed on the floor. Could this be causing damp issues? I had another thread created a while ago about tiles breaking in a section of the bathroom floor and how the floor was damp when the tiles were removed. Teh damp could be as a result of the leak from the pipes but the section of the floor that's damp seems to be about 1.5m from where the leak was.

Realistically there's not a lot I can do. What if I get building control? What's he going to tell me that I don't know? It's really not an option to rip out living room floor (wooden), bathroom and kitchen and re-do the whole thing. I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and hope that no leaks/other problems appear in the next 10 years or so. After that I could do another refurbishment but this time armed with the knowledge I'll make sure the builders follow proper guidelines.

PS: A quick googling of copper in concrete revealed that there;'s no conclusive evidence that concrete corrodes copper in fact some studies found it has no effect but they seem to suggest that joints could be damaged.

 

[king of pipes]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Belive me bud bare copper and in a screed floor is a recipe for disaster, could you not abandon the pipe work in the floor and re run it on the surface put it in a box skirting ? ,you will have more leaks if not what are the marks on wall it looks like water marks did the bath leak address the problems now or you will end up living in a damp unhealthy environment

 

[king of pipes]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Double posting is a pain ?

 

[cammy0102]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Belive me bud bare copper and in a screed floor is a recipe for disaster, could you not abandon the pipe work in the floor and re run it on the surface put it in a box skirting ? ,you will have more leaks if not what are the marks on wall it looks like water marks did the bath leak address the problems now or you will end up living in a damp unhealthy environment

Appreciate the input mate. Unfortunately it's not an option to re-do it. I bought a flat and did a full refurbishment and got the builder to replace pipes and boiler thinking that I'd be able to live without any leaks for a long time. At the time I was inexperienced about these things and relied on builder to supervise and his men to do the work properly obviously it hasn't turned out that way.

I've got new kitchen, new bathroom, new wooden flooring in the living room so I don't want to destroy them/drill holes on the walls at this stage. If i have leaks in the future and I can't find where it is, I may well have to do something like that but at the moment I am not going to re-run the pipes.

I'm in a pretty difficult situation without any easy options. I will email the builder my concerns and see what he says. I know he's said that if there are any issues, he'll come and fix them and so far he's kept his word but I don't if he'll do the same in a few years time when he might not be legally liable for damages.

 

[Best]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Your builder probably knows little about plumbing. If he did inspect those pipes without insulation or when screed floor was going in on top of the bare copper, then he is a cowboy.
Always ask a plumber about plumbing, not a builder.
Concrete, or any cement mix will rot copper if it gets even slightly damp.
Personally I would involve building control, plus other plumbers in giving you reports about the uninsulated copper pipes, even if that means digging a few inspection test points in concrete floor. Then get the cost of a repipe job back off your builder. He deserves to pay for his bad work.

 

[Scott_D]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

It looks fluxed but not soldered in the picture

 

[Riley]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

It looks fluxed but not soldered in the picture

Funnily enough I thought the same but assumed it was the pic

 

[Riley]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

It looks fluxed but not soldered in the picture

Funnily enough I thought the same but assumed it was the pic

 

[Scott_D]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

smells fishy

 

[Riley]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

If the builder/plumber have genuinely been involved in this get on top of it now at their cost Once you've paid and they vanish off on the horses into the sunset you've got no chance

 

[Old Account]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

I also would not use a push fit ... will definitely leak at some point ... as mentioned here many times get a proper plumber out and let him do a professional job .. pay a few quitt more but in the end you safe a whole lot.

Once everything is been installed and hidden it will be a lot more expensive to you to sort those leaks out.

What's the point of leaving it in as it is ? Just get it done and bite in the bullet that way and get it proper installed, you will eventually thank your professional plumber and ukplumbingdorum for all the advise you got from fully qualified engineers.

As mentioned above did you make sure that the other joints are welded ? If not next time you fill up it will gush ..

 

[king of pipes]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Looks like you have made your mind up to accept the builders word foolishly bud , just get it in writing off them that they will stand by the work for 12 months your won't have much luck in getting them to do any repairs after that period , keep part of their payment back until they do so and you are happy ,make sure you have a good home insurance policy I think you may be needing it in the future all the best k

 

[cammy0102]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

I don't think some of you understand the difficulty of the situation. The refurbishment was finished with everything new in the house with new plaster in the walls, new floors, new kitchen, new bathroom. I know some of the copper pipes run under concrete in the kitchen, bathroom and part of the living room. Rest of the house it's just running under joists.

I don't want to rip everything out re-do because that will cost 10s of thousands and I will have to move out of the place which is not an option plus I have a flatmate/lodger in the flat with me.

So tell me realistic solutions. I don't think I'm going to be able to get say 10K from the builder to do the whole thing. Only option I have is to take him to small claims court but firstly they'll ask me whether I tried resolving amicably and gave the builder a chance to fix it. So far builder has promised to fix everything and he's sent his men around to inspect the loss of pressure in the boiler and to find the leak, numerous times. So I can't say he hasn't co-operated. I don't think I'm going to get 10K from him that way. And as soon as I take him to the courts, he'll stop co-operating with me.

What's paying council building regulations going to do?

Builder's plumber (yes he's probably a :nono: plumber) insulated all the copper pipes in the bathroom floor and put concrete over it. The bath has already gone in. But I could ask him to take it all out and re-do the plumbing in the bathroom and remove the plastic push fitting and all the other joints and have one straight 22mm pipe maybe with a T junction for the drain off.

I'm going to call a friend of a friend who's a plumber that works at a hospital so I'm guessing he's certified. I'll ask him for advice as well.

This is really stressful.

PS: The 2nd picture was taken before the guy could solder the joints at the top.

The main contractor I don't think saw must of the work. He was only in the building a few times. I gave the refurbishment work to to this guy and he's got multiple teams that does pretty big refurbishments so he's got a reasonable reputation to uphold.

 

[cammy0102]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Double post

 

[Dotty]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Caveat emptor.

Goes to prove that the bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweet taste of low price fades.

 

[cammy0102]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

It wasn't 'low price' either. He was more expensive than one of the other contractors (I had 3 quotes). I went and checked one of his refurbishment at a multi million pound property in Hammersmith in London and I know he's worked/working with in other expensive properties (far more expensive than my flat).

Obviously had I known about all the dodgy or incompetent tradesmen back then, I would have done things differently (would have asked for certificates for the plumbers he used, kept a very close eye on the job, etc) but what's done is done.

I've just spoken to plumber friend (he's certified and works in hospitals) and he said get the builder to change the new work (he'll have to get his men to remove the bath, dig the floor again and replace the pipes) but leave the other pipe work in the rest of the house as it's going to be difficult to replace them now. Builder is certainly not going to pay me thousands to rip everything out and replace.

 

[cammy0102]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

My plumber friend told me that central heating pipes should ideally be insulated everywhere not just under concrete to avoid heat loss. I know they are definitely not insulated rest of the house where the pipes are running under floor joists.

This is bloody frustrating. All they had to do was ask me for insulation - I was paying for all the material and the price they were charging was for labour.

I did see some grey foam insulation tubes in the kitchen so maybe he insulated the pipes under kitchen floor but not sure about the living room as I wasn't there when they did it. Is this the right insulation type?

The crappy plumber that 'fixed' the leak in the bathroom covered the pipes with this brown fibrous long strip. Not sure if it's any good?

 

[Riley]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Inconvenience over potential floods and damage to yours and your neighbours property and massive insurance claims. I know which way I'd be looking. Plus if something goes wrong within the 12 month "guarantee" period offered you by your builder youll still be having floors up and damage caused. Please don't think we don't understand as most of us on here are experienced and know what should be involved in a decent install. It sound to me like your boys have cut corners and that this is the tip of the iceberg in terms of trouble for you. I'd either be getting it done now or getting some money back from your builder now

 

[king of pipes]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

We all feel for you mate but there really is no excuse for poor workmanship you paid good money for your project, your builder employed these people it is his responsibility to make sure they are qualified, supervised and experienced in the trade you are only as good as your last job this could reflex very badly on his business, I myself rely on recommendation for all my work never had to advertise I had 30 years working for a company and 5 more as a sole trader and I am always busy because I break my balls giving my customers a good job , I can't help you anymore than that mate i hope you resolve your problems regards k

 

[cammy0102]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

Gents, could you please reply to this?

My plumber friend told me that central heating pipes should ideally be insulated everywhere not just under concrete to avoid heat loss. I know they are definitely not insulated rest of the house where the pipes are running under floor joists.

This is bloody frustrating. All they had to do was ask me for insulation - I was paying for all the material and the price they were charging was for labour.

I did see some grey foam insulation tubes in the kitchen so maybe he insulated the pipes under kitchen floor but not sure about the living room as I wasn't there when they did it. Is this the right insulation type?

The crappy plumber that 'fixed' the leak in the bathroom covered the pipes with this brown fibrous long strip. Not sure if it's any good?

 

[king of pipes]

Re: Central heating leak found but not sure about how the plumber has welded the pipe

That would have been hair felt lagging bud not the best but better than nothing in a ideal world insulate where you can under the joisted floors but its not essential, around boilers and cylinders is a building regulation , always insulate pipework under concrete or screed floors no excuse not to .