Damned modern close coupled toilet !!

[easyt]

I took out a comfortable well crafted 45 year old toilet and have replaced it with a crappy new one. (WOMEN !!) Toilet and cistern coupled, plumbed and fixed. Job done I thought. Then on checking there is a little drop of water on a wingnut that goes through a metal plate where the cistern and basin are connected. Ah well other jobs to do so it will have to wait.

I will disconnect the feed pipe and cistern and lift it out. Must be a leak between the rubber seal under the siphon against the cistern. I will try and tighten it but are there any suggestions. Does anyone use a sealant oe rely on the rubber seal ?

 

[turnpin]

whilst it is out check for any hairline cracks when I make up my cisterns I always fill with some water and check before fitting saves a bit of grief when your trying to get away early. In the old days used to get leather washer as well for under siphon back nut on outside of cisternregards turnpin

 

[Blake]

If it's a new toilet then there should not be any need for any sealant. Check you have tightened the siphon unit, and that the doughnut washer sits nicely between the pan and cistern. Then simply tighten the wing nuts.

I'd tighten the wing nuts first before doing anything else as it might be that simple.

Failing that, you can do what some cowboy did to a toilet I went to fix this morning and use a whole tube of silicon!??!! I nearly snapped the cistern trying to get it off

 

[fuzzy]

silicone

 

[Gray0689]

Yes silicone

 

[WaterTight]

I find over-tightening the wingnuts can be worse than under-tightening. It pulls the plastic securing nut away from the cistern base and allows a few dribbles out. On a new toilet you shouldn't really have a problem but take it apart again, make sure everything is sitting in line and apply either a little silicone or LSX under the flsuh-valve washer inside the cistern and possibly some above and below the doughnut washer. That way when it all gets tightened up you've applied sealant to everywhere that might be a cause.

 

[Plamber]

i use plumbers mait when things like this happen. just a little around the doughut washer.
a good way to test is if its a push button flush, hold down the flush for 20-30 seconds and if you dont see a drip then it should be sound.

Silicone?? on a wc fitting?

 

[easyt]

It must definitely be the siphon sealing washer. When I flush no obvious leaks, Go back an hour later and there is a drip on one of the holding down bolts. Water must seep past the washer, drip onto metal plate and run onto one of the bolts and wingnuts.

Siliconeit is then.

Thanks All.

PS I will check the cistern carefully.

 

[Avatar]

Is it the type where the bolts/wingnut are threaded into the cistern and sealed with cone shaped washers? If so these need to be correctly installed and tighted well.

Or is it coupled with one of these - if so make sure you have a rubber donut like so, and not a crappy bit of foam.

Google Image Result for http://www.toolstation.com/images/library/stock/webbig/85615.jpg

Only 2 rules with cisterns:

1) do it up tight

2) do it up tighter (you never know the bloosy thing might leak!)

 

[tackleburger]

Using silicone is ridiculous an sanitaryware. I never use it on anything at all. I use water hawk or boss white applied sparingly and wiped round nice and neat. Silicone is messy and it is a maintenance nightmare and is mainly used in ecess i may add in new builds and by cowboys who don't know any better. Spot of plumbers mait on doughnuts never does any harm.

Silicones and some of these modern adhesives are a nuisance when mis-used on sanitary fittings. Costing valubale time and the clients more money to put things right.

 

[Puddle]

Well it is obvious how to fit and seal a modern cistern to a pan,it may never flush proberly and will leak after a while but I put that down to bad build quality not the fact some prat had used a l/l internal flush cone !!!

What the hell,I did alright out of it putting it right

 

[johnmcginty]

silicone the syphon everytime and silicone the donut too especially with these new sponge ones , I have done it many, many times and it workes everytime, plumbers mait.... never that will fail after time.

 

[easyt]

Thanks again everyone

 

[turnpin]

I wonder if Puddle has stopped biting his nails after this job ! nice!!regards turnpin

 

[tackleburger]

silicone the syphon everytime and silicone the donut too especially with these new sponge ones , I have done it many, many times and it workes everytime, plumbers mait.... never that will fail after time.

Nonsense my friend. Seen silicone fail many a time. Silicone is cowboy material and not designed for total immersion anyway. ?The only sanitary fitting I know of that recomends silicone is a MacAlpine shower trap/waste. They actually recommend a particular brand, which is a questionable motive.

 

[moony]

Nonsense my friend. Seen silicone fail many a time. Silicone is cowboy material and not designed for total immersion anyway. ?The only sanitary fitting I know of that recomends silicone is a MacAlpine shower trap/waste. They actually recommend a particular brand, which is a questionable motive.

well thats my methods down the pan lol - must also be a cowboy - as ive always used silicone to seal wastes and cisterns, always seal the syphon with it and always seal the ball valve when fitting from new - this is week in week out and havent been called back for a long time.

 

[Plamber]

i use silicone on waste gratings but apart from that not on sanitary ware at all. especially not close couples cistern and toilets. if its done right it wont need silicone. the silicone just means when coming to fix it further down the line its a nightmare. i had one a few weeks ago and it took me ages to scrape off the old silicone. the previous guy had pretty much glued the cistern to the pan.

 

[easyt]

On second thoughts what else instead of silicone. Boss White - Plumbers Mate ??

The previous toilet lasted 45 years with original porcelain siphon. presume it never needed more than the odd inlet valve replaced. I've replaced one with ballcock and I've been here 24 years. I wouldn;t give the new one more than 5 years before I have to take apart to replace siphon etc.

 

[Magicplumb]

If I've got to change a syphon now a days I would aways fit one of these.

Fluidmaster UK - Cable Pushbutton Dual Flush Valve

The way to go

 

[johnmcginty]

Nonsense my friend. Seen silicone fail many a time. Silicone is cowboy material and not designed for total immersion anyway. ?The only sanitary fitting I know of that recomends silicone is a MacAlpine shower trap/waste. They actually recommend a particular brand, which is a questionable motive.

so you have never once siliconed in a syphon .....hmmmm

 

[tackleburger]

The ball valve!! Oh dear, dear.

 

[Avatar]

I dont use ANY thing on compression joints (boss white or god forbid ptfe!)

I dont use any sealant when fitting tiolets (yes this includes silicon AND plumbers mate - which is only good for making voodoo dolls of your customers!)

AND none of my work leaks. I rely on the brass olive in the compression joint, and the rubber washers used in the fitting of a cistern to do the job that the manufacturer intended. Does the manufacturer tell you to use silicon or jointing compounds - NO!!! If there is a little leak when you commission, then you tighten it up a bit more!

There is a time and a place for all of these jointing materials, and it is called the right place and time!

We should start a new thread:

THE A-Z of sealant and compounds

- Use silicon on basin and shower wastes AS the manufacturer recommends

- Use LSX or boss white or ptfe on failing or leaky olives only.

The Jointing Bible says Thou shalt not ever use a sealant or ptfe on a rubber washer/or fitting with a washer in it (as you will stop the washer from functioning)


When I fit a bathroom suite, the only place I put sealant is around the bath, and basin. I even use the rubber washer basin waste kits now as the are easier to work with. You should think twice before reaching for your sealant gun, as it is a tricky and messy material to work with . . .

 

[Plamber]

I dont find silicone tricky to use. plus its easy to clean off when still wet.

I use it on bath,whb,shower wastes. thats just how i learned. but i would never use it on the ballvalve or on the bottom of the syphon. And as for siliconing close couple toilets together, come on now. if it still leaks after taking it apart and putting it back together i would use a little plumbersmait.

 

[moony]

so you dont use it on the bottom entry ball valves? or inlet valves whichever you want to call them tackle burger ? and why is it oh dear oh dear if you do ?

when i fit a new modern cistern i put a bit of silicone on the syphon and the inlet valve around the washer - let it go off before filling and have never had any problems.

i take it you dont use anything and just rely on the washer which is fine, i just find some of the cheap plastic fittings dont seal the best, hence doing when its dry get a good seal from the off and off i go onto next job

 

[Avatar]

It depends, some of B&Q's tiolets are crap quality components.

If the quality is good, you simply dont need silicon that is the main thing - it may work fine, like ptfe on a compression joint threads, or it may leak. Either way you dont need it to make the joint water tight!

Some plumber put boss white on all their compression joints - I dont, and they never leak when tighened correctly! It seems a waste of time.

There is a saying 'if it aint broke dont try and fix it', which apply here I think.

Just try it when you next do a cistern (not from wee and poo!).

 

[easyt]

The good news. The very slight weep under the siphon must have self healed. No sign of dampness for 3 days. Still needs to come off but can wait for my snagging list after other works are done

 

[tackleburger]

I agree with you Avatar but I do tend to put a small smear of Water Hawk on the siphon seal had a few which were a but uneven on the inside of the cistern. Never use anything on compression fittings waste of time. This Q plumb bloke must take ages to fit a bog waiting for half a tube of silicone aka fixes everything to go off.

 

[ecowarm]

Rubber washers do not need or require any extra lube or sealant. Just put it together and nip up. End of.

 

[stevetheplumber]

I agree with you Avatar but I do tend to put a small smear of Water Hawk on the siphon seal had a few which were a but uneven on the inside of the cistern. Never use anything on compression fittings waste of time. This Q plumb bloke must take ages to fit a bog waiting for half a tube of silicone aka fixes everything to go off.

my pet hate is ptfe on compresion fittings shouts cowboy as soon as i see it

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

using silicone is ridiculous an sanitaryware. I never use it on anything at all. I use water hawk or boss white applied sparingly and wiped round nice and neat. Silicone is messy and it is a maintenance nightmare and is mainly used in ecess i may add in new builds and by cowboys who don't know any better. Spot of plumbers mait on doughnuts never does any harm.

Silicones and some of these modern adhesives are a nuisance when mis-used on sanitary fittings. Costing valubale time and the clients more money to put things right.

bosswhite?????????????????????????????????????????????????/

 

[kirkgas]

so you have never once siliconed in a syphon .....hmmmm

i have NEVER used silicone on any part of a pan or cistern, occasionally with a leak on the donut washer i have used plumbers mait, i think it is usually down to a poor casting on the pan stopping the donut sealing 100%, as someone said earlier i find more problems if they have been over tightened, there is absolutely no need to silicone a ballcock into a cistern, your ears must be burning when someone has to change a ballvalve or a syphon after you have siliconed them together

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

come on now kirk,plumbers mate is goo

 

[kirkgas]

come on now kirk,plumbers mate is goo

plumbers mait is what i have used on the few occasions that i have had a leak with a donut washer, read the instructions for plumbers mait, it is designed to be used to seal whb/bath gratings, soil pipe joints etc, we used to use red lead putty, hands up if you remember trying to get taps off a bath after a few years, then we moved onto glaziers putty, then plumbers mait, i have fitted hundreds(????) of baths, whbs and sink unit waste and overflows, cast iron soil stacks and never had any prob with plumbers mait as it is supposed to stay flexible, the only place i use good quality silicone is to seal round edge of baths and showers, each to his own, but i can never advocate silicone to seal a ballcock into a cistern

 

[ecowarm]

Plumbers Mait is good for what it was designed for, donut washers is not one of them.

Plumbers Mait is a replacement for putty.

 

[tackleburger]

bosswhite?????????????????????????????????????????????????/

Yup, mostly round the underside of a basin waste thread and washer since it is a thread seal it tends to work Gas Man. It may not be actual boss white mostly use potable Fernox Water Hawk, works really well inside cisterns where castings are sometimes uneven and much neater and better than silicone. If they are smoth then nothing is ever required.