Finding a blockage in heating pipework

[jaydebruyne]

I did a powerflush a few weeks back and when I was dumping the water the flow dropped immediately. So I rang tech support (Anton) for my pump and he said it's because there's a blockage in the pipework - I tested the pump itself which was fine.

It's a flat with ground and first floor. All rads get hot upstairs but not down. Pipework from the boiler run straight to ceiling/1st floor void and tees somewhere to feed the ground floor.

Based on upstairs rads getting hot I know the blockage isn't there.

So.. how do I go about pinpointing the blockage? I'm thinking taking up some flooring and running across the pipework with a FLIR .. any other suggestions?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

If you can follow/touch the Pipework go around with a magnet

Or if you have flir walk the route should see roughly where the blockage is

 

[jaydebruyne]

If you can follow/touch the Pipework go around with a magnet

Or if you have flir walk the route should see roughly where the blockage is

It's a partial blockage.. sorry shoulda said that.. so the magnet will obv stick to the magnetite?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep which most of the case are what the blockages made out of

 

[jaydebruyne]

Yep which most of the case are what the blockages made out of

Ok cool.. cheers Shaun

 

[Harvest Fields]

Especially if you've drained the water out of the a F&E using a drain cock and not sucked it up with a wet vac

 

[Old Account]

Is that vented or sealed system?
Quite often it's the T junctions or somewhere close to the boiler.
I had it few times though.

 

[jaydebruyne]

Is that vented or sealed system?
Quite often it's the T junctions or somewhere close to the boiler.
I had it few times though.

It's a sealed system.. yeah I'm there week after next to investigate. How did you find the blockage?

 

[jtsplumbing]

Is ground floor 10mm drops ??

 

[Last Plumber]

When the flow dropped during the dump stage, did you try dumping in reverse and if so did it make any difference ?

Where all the rads open at the stage you were at or were you dumping through one rad at a time ?

And as above (jts) are the downstairs individual drops or are the downstairs fed from one drop ?

Are there two heating zones or one ?

Was the water particularly soiled?

 

[jaydebruyne]

When the flow dropped during the dump stage, did you try dumping in reverse and if so did it make any difference ?

Where all the rads open at the stage you were at or were you dumping through one rad at a time ?

And as above (jts) are the downstairs individual drops or are the downstairs fed from one drop ?

Are there two heating zones or one ?

Was the water particularly soiled?

Tried both ways and no difference.
I think all but one we're closed at first then I opened them all - but I can't remember really tbh
Single zone
No idea how many drops as pipework is concealed
Water wasn't that bad no

 

[jaydebruyne]

Is ground floor 10mm drops ??

Not sure as pipework is concealed

 

[Last Plumber]

Zone valves or combi with one open zone from Boiler?

Where were you flushing from, meaning did you remove a pump, connect under the appliance?

Was the flush passing through the Boiler or was it system only ?

 

[jaydebruyne]

Zone valves or combi with one open zone from Boiler?

Where were you flushing from, meaning did you remove a pump, connect under the appliance?

Was the flush passing through the Boiler or was it system only ?

Combi with open zone from boiler
Disconnected system filter on return under boiler and pumped through the valves
Was passing through boiler

 

[Last Plumber]

Anyone open a tap during flush?
Could they have ?
Is it a combi with a diverter ?

 

[Last Plumber]

I'm thinking that if the water was not that bad, it is more likely something changed to restrict flow.
e.g. if diverter moved across it would restrict the path for the water you were shifting around the system. I'm not saying that's the answer but it does sound more like a valve changing than a blockage to me.

It can be a blockage of course and you should not rule that out but i'm trying to help you think outside the box

 

[Chuck]

You may be able to learn something useful by starting with the system 'cold', all upstairs radiators off, circulating pump set low. Then use your thermal imager to figure out the sequence in which the radiators come on when the heating comes on.

The idea is the the blockage will be in the flow or return section immediately downstream from the last radiator to light up. Not a sure-fire solution, of course, but relatively easy and non-destructive.

 

[Vee]

If it once was a open vented system, especially gravity fed hot water, look for blockage where the old cold feed would have joined the system. Generally at ground floor level near where the boiler used to be. Or any position where the cold feed joined the flow. And for the complete joker, if an old anti gravity valve left in the system has finally collapsed, the position of which is your guess on the central heating return back to the old boiler position. Good luck.

 

[jaydebruyne]

I'm thinking that if the water was not that bad, it is more likely something changed to restrict flow.
e.g. if diverter moved across it would restrict the path for the water you were shifting around the system. I'm not saying that's the answer but it does sound more like a valve changing than a blockage to me.

It can be a blockage of course and you should not rule that out but i'm trying to help you think outside the box

UPDATE:
I've just changed the pump as I wanted to rule this out.
The return pipe above the pump going back into the main hex is hot, flow from hex and to system is fine. Flow from system going back into boiler is barely like warm.
Funnily enough the plate hex is also hot whic leads me to think the diverter could be at fault.
When I run the dhw it gets stupidly hot and then cools to probably 40c and stays that way but the flow pipe underneath boiler gets hot also which kind of confirms that it's the diverter and also the plate hex could also have a blockage possible but best to change the diverter first.
What you reckon?

 

[Last Plumber]

UPDATE:
I've just changed the pump as I wanted to rule this out.
The return pipe above the pump going back into the main hex is hot, flow from hex and to system is fine. Flow from system going back into boiler is barely like warm.
Funnily enough the plate hex is also hot whic leads me to think the diverter could be at fault.
When I run the dhw it gets stupidly hot and then cools to probably 40c and stays that way but the flow pipe underneath boiler gets hot also which kind of confirms that it's the diverter and also the plate hex could also have a blockage possible but best to change the diverter first.
What you reckon?

I think, it sounds like that was the problem during flushing like I said earlier.

Those machines use a higher flow rate and pressure than a CH pump/Circulator.

I am not saying that the Flush has damaged the valve but it could be a possibility.

I would replace it.

It is only my opinion of course and others may well disagree but I would always avoid flushing through the boiler unless it's an older one with a cast iron heat ex.

In combi/modern boilers there are too many small water ways and delicate component parts that are at risk from a high volume, crud filled flushing process.

 

[jaydebruyne]

I think, it sounds like that was the problem during flushing like I said earlier.

Those machines use a higher flow rate and pressure than a CH pump/Circulator.

I am not saying that the Flush has damaged the valve but it could be a possibility.

I would replace it.

It is only my opinion of course and others may well disagree but I would always avoid flushing through the boiler unless it's an older one with a cast iron heat ex.

In combi/modern boilers there are too many small water ways and delicate component parts that are at risk from a high volume, crud filled flushing process.

Just changed the diverter, cleaned out the manifold with the filter on the flow and removed the filter and still the same issue. It's circulating through the boiler via the bypass. In DHW mode it ramps up then back down to 40c where it stays.
In heating mode it ramps up to 78c and then burner goes out, cools down and reignites to bring it back up to temp and cycles through this constantly.

EDIT:
Just spoke to Vaillant, they got me to do a few things and shout out the S codes and they've determined the blockage is def inside the boiler.
I'm gonna check the thermistors on the flow/return when it cools down but he reckons it could be the main hex??? If it were the main hex why would it go through the bypass? Surely it would go through the heating circuit still, no? I know Vaillants are a bit strange...

 

[Chuck]

You said in your first post that the upstairs rads get hot but not the downstairs ones. The boiler is short cycling, presumably because the blockage in the downstairs loop is causing the bypass to open (or it has stuck open). To me these suggest a blockage external to the boiler, specifically in the circuit that serves the downstairs rads. You haven't mentioned the pump sounding noisy (due to pumping against the unbypassed impedance of a blocked HEX) or kettling/banging coming from the boiler, which I'd expect if you have a blocked HEX.

 

[Last Plumber]

Is this the Vaillant with Black rubber hoses?
If it is, Take them off and look inside !
They corrode and decompose to the point were they will block the flow. I have come across what you're describing a few times. If you flushed through the Boiler, it could have removed that black residue from inside those tubes.

 

[jaydebruyne]

You said in your first post that the upstairs rads get hot but not the downstairs ones. The boiler is short cycling, presumably because the blockage in the downstairs loop is causing the bypass to open (or it has stuck open). To me these suggest a blockage external to the boiler, specifically in the circuit that serves the downstairs rads. You haven't mentioned the pump sounding noisy (due to pumping against the unbypassed impedance of a blocked HEX) or kettling/banging coming from the boiler, which I'd expect if you have a blocked HEX.

No kettling, no banging, no noisy pump. I didn't think a blockage in the main hex would cause the bypass to open either.

Is this the Vaillant with Black rubber hoses?
If it is, Take them off and look inside !
They corrode and decompose to the point were they will block the flow. I have come across what you're describing a few times. If you flushed through the Boiler, it could have removed that black residue from inside those tubes.

No its 2 copper pipes for flow/return inside the boiler

----

Isn't the bypass part of the pump housing on these boilers? I might be wrong! As I changed the entire housing for the pump too..

 

[Last Plumber]

No kettling, no banging, no noisy pump. I didn't think a blockage in the main hex would cause the bypass to open either.



No its 2 copper pipes for flow/return inside the boiler

----

Isn't the bypass part of the pump housing on these boilers? I might be wrong! As I changed the entire housing for the pump too..

There's a small 12-13mm pipe that connects the brass (flow filter housing) block across the back to the bypass screw, which is facing you and is situated to the left of the pump as you look.

 

[jaydebruyne]

There's a small 12-13mm pipe that connects the brass (flow filter housing) block across the back to the bypass screw, which is facing you and is situated to the left of the pump as you look.

Ok .. i think tomorrow I'm going to flush the system and bypass the boiler to see if the blockage is in the pipework or the boiler. At least then I'll know for sure.

 

[jaydebruyne]

There's a small 12-13mm pipe that connects the brass (flow filter housing) block across the back to the bypass screw, which is facing you and is situated to the left of the pump as you look.

To the left of the pump is the diverter which has a brass screw, is that what you mean?

 

[jaydebruyne]

Blockage is def in pipework. Just tried to flush system bypassing the boiler and getting hardly any flow at all. up comes the floor!

 

[Last Plumber]

To the left of the pump is the diverter which has a brass screw, is that what you mean?

Yes, Long thread and circlip, Normally set around the halfway point

 

[jaydebruyne]

Yes, Long thread and circlip, Normally set around the halfway point

Just tried to flush system bypassing boiler, now have no flow at all so blockage is now worse than before. Boiler is fine in DHW but just goes round bypass on heating. What's the best way now of finding the blockage? lol literally exposing entire circuit and checking pipework with a magnet?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Or putting more pressure in

 

[jaydebruyne]

Or putting more pressure in

Via the filing loop? To try and blast the blockage or? Also, I'm I best draining system before going round with a magnet?

 

[Last Plumber]

I wouldn't spend too much time travelling about with a magnet to be honest.
You need to sit down and think through this with a cuppa.
We have not seen the system so it is a bit difficult.

Are you sure that there are no Non return valves or Motorised valves in the pipe work?

How old is the system ?

Not all blockages are ferrous in nature and you said the water wasn't that dirty.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Doesn't matter if the system is drained to test with the magnet works either way

And would stick 5 bar in it and see what it does

 

[jaydebruyne]

I wouldn't spend too much time travelling about with a magnet to be honest.
You need to sit down and think through this with a cuppa.
We have not seen the system so it is a bit difficult.

Are you sure that there are no Non return valves or Motorised valves in the pipe work?

How old is the system ?

Not all blockages are ferrous in nature and you said the water wasn't that dirty.

It's a combi convert from an old gravity system. Single circuit. Have traced pipes from loft and no sign of any valves unless under floor. Pipework goes up from boiler to 1st floor and comes down to first floor beside the lounge door inside boxing and the disappears under floor.

There are only 2 problem rads, lounge and bedroom. I'm starting with the lounge since this was the one which was first noticed. Then will go on to bedroom and take it fro there. I might check pipework coming down the wall for any valves first though as this is the only pipework I've not checked yet for valves and would be a logical place for an anti gravity valve, no? Or are they nearer to the boiler?

Also when I tried flushing it today, huge chunks of solid magnetite were in the hoses.