fully qualified plumber in two weeks.

[Plum Bob 66]

Hi Fuzzy

Well basically it just water regs through Bpec and 6128 unvented, I read your earlier replys which more or less stated they were less than useless and not plumbing qauls, but isnt that laughable when they came with the NCS course. As also stated doing my part P defined scope end of March. I dont want keep sailing off into the deluded blue yonder thinking I get by with the basics because you cant and yes I have a conscience. I came from a catering background to "retrain" and in the 27 years I was a chef I gained every City and guilds qaul going and had the same thougts as you guys when some whippersnapper entered the Industry and became a Head chef after 2 years. Hope you understand the analogy here. Theres no replacement for experience and every job I go to I learn something new, but I want the paper work to go with it. Believe it or not my route isnt the easy route! I never set out in this Industry to put time served noses out of joint, just make a living doing the job as dilligently as possible.
Bob.

 

[jimbo.1234]

Is there anyone who knows how to get some sample questions fpr my acs i have it booked for friday. I am bricking it.

 

[fagsanbooz]

Is there anyone who knows how to get some sample questions fpr my acs i have it booked for friday. I am bricking it.

Wouldn't worry about the theory too much, open book etc but the practical is where i would swot up on! all the processes, procedures, techniques and basic safety checks for everything etc

 

[jase158]

I did my training at college and did the fast track for my nvq,

No they are Not destroying the industry, The Plumbers who will not take on an apprentice, Is ruining the industry, I sent 160 letters to plumbers, offering to work for free to gain experience and received a disgraceful 10 replies all saying NO. How am I suppose to learn if nobody will take me on.

I learnt all the building regs, i.e. at college.

But the 2 weeks courses are actually 10 weeks. This is 50 days. College have 2 days a week over 24 weeks, equalling 48 days so you work it out.

The NVQ is 6 visits on site, which is exactly the same as in college.

For me there is no different, except that the college is all a bunch of 16-18 year olds who do not want to be there, and they have had it all free.
Training centres are all people who actually want to be there and have paid for their course so there is about 30 per cent more training time.

 

[GQuigley67]

because during your apprenticeship college was boring you'd rather be on site doing the work

 

[REDSAW]

Is there anyone who knows how to get some sample questions fpr my acs i have it booked for friday. I am bricking it.

left it a little late havnt we?.
join the viper site about £49, you can then have free access to print of a myriad of ccn1 q's and books.

 

[tamz]

I'll give you a question and see if you can answer it without looking it up. It is one of the most important things you should know. I'll make the question slightly harder than you will be asked but it reflects what you'll find in the real world more.

Old open flue boiler, 60000btu, fitted in a cupboard next to the back door. What size vents? (all options)

 

[fuzzy]

trick question tamz, its in a cupboard????????????

 

[dontknowitall]

I'll give you a question and see if you can answer it without looking it up. It is one of the most important things you should know. I'll make the question slightly harder than you will be asked but it reflects what you'll find in the real world more.

Old open flue boiler, 60000btu, fitted in a cupboard next to the back door. What size vents? (all options)

Great question!! It was easy when I sat the exam because I'd looked in the book that day. Must admit I can't remember but I know the diagram I'm to look at and know which book it's in!

Now, this next part is purely voluntary and I'll try to have a look in my book before I come back here ... so for my interest ...

Hazarding a guess, there was a number of 583?? and you have to have two lots of air going in and one going out, if you see what I mean. If I HAD to put one in tomorrow and had no access to my books I'd be putting two of those 100mm2 vents in.

I'll see how correct I am when I return.

 

[fuzzy]

I did my training at college and did the fast track for my nvq,

No they are Not destroying the industry, The Plumbers who will not take on an apprentice, Is ruining the industry, I sent 160 letters to plumbers, offering to work for free to gain experience and received a disgraceful 10 replies all saying NO. How am I suppose to learn if nobody will take me on.

I learnt all the building regs, i.e. at college.

But the 2 weeks courses are actually 10 weeks. This is 50 days. College have 2 days a week over 24 weeks, equalling 48 days so you work it out.

The NVQ is 6 visits on site, which is exactly the same as in college.

For me there is no different, except that the college is all a bunch of 16-18 year olds who do not want to be there, and they have had it all free.
Training centres are all people who actually want to be there and have paid for their course so there is about 30 per cent more training time.

apprenticeships are day release 8 hours for 36 weeks a year and for 4 years, now you do the maths. Poor advice leads to incorrect decisions, your post is not only incorrect but dangerous for people wnating to train as they need the correct facts

why do you think people must take you on??

 

[fuzzy]

double on bottom than top 20mm and 10cm squared per kw with no adventicious ventilatiom, am i close, then outside is as per normal

 

[fuzzy]

bottom is for combustion and cooling, top is for cooling only hence half

 

[tamz]

I'll tell you in a wee while. See what answers come out.

 

[fuzzy]

hurry up tamz im goin bed!

 

[fuzzy]

is the coversion factor divide by 3410? all this off top of head, cud look it up but too lazy

 

[jase158]

apprenticeships are day release 8 hours for 36 weeks a year and for 4 years, now you do the maths. Poor advice leads to incorrect decisions, your post is not only incorrect but dangerous for people wnating to train as they need the correct facts

It is not dangerous, these are facts, when you work out the amount of time it is pretty much the same and when you learn all together, you in-bed it in your brain, when you go 1 day a week, you can forget things from one week to the next. It is my opinion and i thought this forum was to express your opinions.

"why do you think people must take you on??"
because if they do not, the industry will go down hill due to plumbers like me having to go out and learn on the job with no previous experience.

I was on about the tech cert level 2 is 10 weeks, level 3 is 10 weeks, NVQs are 6 days each so in total it is 106 days plus gas training.

over 4 years at 36 weeks you will spend 144 days a year at college, minus the days that the college mess you around, the days that you spend not learning anything and the days where the kids mess around. so roughly the same.

When i went to college the first term was spent waiting for a tutor to turn up as the first one quit within 1 week of the start of term. so of your 36 weeks, we only actually got 28 weeks, then we taught ourselves as the tutor joined in with the younger kids messing around and then 2 weeks before the end of term, he got sacked, I would never go back to college after my experience. The facts. The fast track is exactly the same as the college for training (not including the stupidly fast track courses). 2 weeks to become a plumber is absolutely rubbish, nobody offers this, they only say that and when you sign up they tell you its actually a lot longer then that.

Now where I agree with everybody is, college / training centres can only teach you so much. The only place you will really learn is in the workplace. If somebody has done 5 years working as a plumber then he will be hundreds better then somebody who went to college for 5 years with no work experience. And the person who worked and went to college 1 day a week will be millions better. You do not learn how to empty water from the pipes before you start work or to empty a toilet before you work on it.

 

[fuzzy]

4 years of day release, the other 4 on site learning your trade. this is far in excess of any of the fast track courses and much better.

if this is yor opinion then this is fine, it seemed to come over as fact, i pointed out it isnt fact, if you want to carry on believing it then fine, thats your choice. i will always post the facts for newbies to read and learn. i founf college excellent, teaching and learning was excellent, tutors very knowledgable and in it for the long term, not until people stop paying silly money and then off on the next venture

 

[jase158]

4 years of day release, the other 4 on site learning your trade. this is far in excess of any of the fast track courses and much better.

if this is yor opinion then this is fine, it seemed to come over as fact, i pointed out it isnt fact, if you want to carry on believing it then fine, thats your choice. i will always post the facts for newbies to read and learn. i founf college excellent, teaching and learning was excellent, tutors very knowledgable and in it for the long term, not until people stop paying silly money and then off on the next venture

Did you not fully read my post

"Now where I agree with everybody is, college / training centres can only teach you so much. The only place you will really learn is in the workplace. If somebody has done 5 years working as a plumber then he will be hundreds better then somebody who went to college for 5 years with no work experience. And the person who worked and went to college 1 day a week will be millions better. You do not learn how to empty water from the pipes before you start work or to empty a toilet before you work on it."


The problem is that there is not enough plumbing apprenticeships out there, so there is 2 choices,
1. quit the job of your dreams, become a bum and live on benefits
2. Fast track courses

where has option 3 gone,
3. work with a plumber for 4 years and go to college 1 day a week

Gone for ever and the fat cats at these training centres are making money from it

 

[jase158]

Have you actually looked into these courses. have you been and found out the resources that they have got, Have you found out how many hours they work, what they are offering, or are you a hard core Fast Track Hater.

the comments you posted are not "FACT" as you say. The day release is not any more or less then the the college, you do the same amount of work, you do the same amount of subjects, it is governed by the same people with the same online exams. with the same percentage that you have to get right on the tests. The only diffeence is the amount of time you have to learn it in and the fact that you don't do have on site work experience.

But if somebody had experience working as a plumber for 10 years, what is stopping him from doing a fast track course.

I personnaly would never employ anybody who was from a college but i would nearly always employ somebody from a Training centre.

Further to this, There are fast track driving courses, Does this mean that these drivers are un safe.

 

[GQuigley67]

i worked on site for 2 weeks, then college for 1 week, for 3 years then a full year on site for my apprenticeship

 

[jase158]

how many of you, (who got an apprenticeship and learnt over 4 years) take on apprentices?

 

[GQuigley67]

ive just started up but i will take on an apprentice cheap labour to be honest and you can teach him the way you work and to your standards

 

[jase158]

and pay his fees. And get insurance? And make sure you have all the safety gear for him?

 

[GQuigley67]

SNIPEF pays alot towards the training, and yes as it would be my duty like any employer who must supply ppe

note snipef is in scotland, dont know whos the equivelent in england

 

[jase158]

how about if they were over 25 and you had to pay for all the fees

 

[GQuigley67]

then no that is why i'd go for a 16 year old apprentice get most payed for via a grant...sadly the fast track thing doesnt look too good on a CV and that is why you'll struggle to get a start, its hard enough for qualified guys to get a job been in the game 20 year

 

[tamz]

Sorry Fuzzy, was watching a bit telly there.

The boiler is rated at 60000btu so you convert it to kw by dividing by 3414 = 17.58kw
As it is an old boiler, unless it states the output is net on the data plate, assume it is gross so divide 17.58 by 1.1 = 15.98 rounded up is 16kw.

If the cupboard (compartment) is vented direct from outside you base you vent sizes on the FULL input of the boiler
Vent sizes would be 16 x 5cm = 80cm² at high level and 16 x 10cm = 160cm² at low level

If however the compartment is vented to the kitchen and then to outside you need to calculate the compartment vent based on overall input which would be 16 x 10cm = 160cm² for high level and 16 x 20cm = 320cm² for low level.
You then need to calculate the combustion air requirement from outside so deduct 7kw from the 16kw for adventitious air = 9kw x 5cm = 45cm² needed

Easy innit. Try to remember that one as you will need it.

 

[Guest123]

I agree with Fuzzy. 10 weeks or 50 days training in this industry is a joke. A real apprenticeship is for 4 years and only in year 2 (or when your considered capable enough) can you actually do work.
There are too many of these fast track plumbers that have little practical on the job experience and they are taking away work from the rest of us who slogged our guts out for years to reach the standard we have now. No sympathy on the lack of your progress on the job front either. There's too many of you now and not enough work to go round so that's why you can't get a job. I for one will only take on a school leaver and give him a proper apprenticeship so that he has the correct training on and off the job.
Fast track? Says it all really.

 

[jase158]

Exactly this is what i am saying, Fast track is there to help people who went off the rails at 16, or were unable to do well in life. To turn their life around, Should we turn our backs on people because they did not decide what they wanted to do by the age of 16.

This goes a lot deeper then just this subject, the benefit system is the main problem, should you go to college when on benefits, you do not qualify for benefits as you are not looking for work. The system does not let people better them selves.

If they stopped paying alcaholics and druggies incapacity benefit, and put this money into helping train people then we would all be better off.

I understand that people have done 4 years to become fully qualified, But if plumbers will not take anybody over the age of 19 because of training fees, what are these people suppose to do?

 

[jase158]

I agree with Fuzzy. 10 weeks or 50 days training in this industry is a joke. A real apprenticeship is for 4 years and only in year 2 (or when your considered capable enough) can you actually do work.
There are too many of these fast track plumbers that have little practical on the job experience and they are taking away work from the rest of us who slogged our guts out for years to reach the standard we have now. No sympathy on the lack of your progress on the job front either. There's too many of you now and not enough work to go round so that's why you can't get a job. I for one will only take on a school leaver and give him a proper apprenticeship so that he has the correct training on and off the job.
Fast track? Says it all really.

So you are saying that i am not worthy of being a plumber?
Even though i learnt at college for 2 years and only did the NVQ fast track? but simply because i am over 19?

 

[REDSAW]

Sorry Fuzzy, was watching a bit telly there.

The boiler is rated at 60000btu so you convert it to kw by dividing by 3414 = 17.58kw
As it is an old boiler, unless it states the output is net on the data plate, assume it is gross so divide 17.58 by 1.1 = 15.98 rounded up is 16kw.

If the cupboard (compartment) is vented direct from outside you base you vent sizes on the FULL input of the boiler
Vent sizes would be 16 x 5cm = 80cm² at high level and 16 x 10cm = 160cm² at low level

If however the compartment is vented to the kitchen and then to outside you need to calculate the compartment vent based on overall input which would be 16 x 10cm = 160cm² for high level and 16 x 20cm = 320cm² for low level.
You then need to calculate the combustion air requirement from outside so deduct 7kw from the 16kw for adventitious air = 9kw x 5cm = 45cm² needed

Easy innit. Try to remember that one as you will need it.

wrong.lol.

 

[jase158]

I agree with Fuzzy. 10 weeks or 50 days training in this industry is a joke. A real apprenticeship is for 4 years and only in year 2 (or when your considered capable enough) can you actually do work.
There are too many of these fast track plumbers that have little practical on the job experience and they are taking away work from the rest of us who slogged our guts out for years to reach the standard we have now. No sympathy on the lack of your progress on the job front either. There's too many of you now and not enough work to go round so that's why you can't get a job. I for one will only take on a school leaver and give him a proper apprenticeship so that he has the correct training on and off the job.
Fast track? Says it all really.

Don't Know if you read it properly, but Its About 120-130 days in total on the fast track, Where as the college is 144 or so days.

Are you saying that people are only worthy to be a plmber if they start from the bottom up, passing tools, watching how someone else does it, making tea and working your way up?

 

[kirkgas]

Is there anyone who knows how to get some sample questions fpr my acs i have it booked for friday. I am bricking it.

send me a PM with an email address and i will send you some

 

[tamz]

I have taken on and trained 4 apprentices over the years and when the on i have with me now has served his time i will start another one.
I do it because i want to pass the skills on the way it was passed to me and give some youngster the chance i had. He will also be taught the way i want him to learn. It is like a blank canvas.
I don't do it for the cheap labour as they have all been on tradesmans wages before their time was out and it is not for what i get in training grants (through Snipef) because that is laughable. It used to work out at £1 a day with a final bonus given at the end of about £1800 (it was something like that with the last one) when they were qualified.
Split that over 4 years and it is not a lot of financial incentive. It doesn't even pay for his bacon rolls. They are also enrolled in the plumbing pension scheme (which also costs me).
They have all been 16 and one 17. Sure young lads are daft and loose interest sometimes but you just need to know how to handle them. We have all did daft things when we were young. Youngsters generally have little financial responsibility (bottle of wine at the weekend!) so accept lower wages. Treat them right and they will be loyal to you but when the time is right they will move on and do you proud.
I can't see me ever taking an adult trainee. They had their chance and blew it years ago. They now have families and mortgages to pay and loyalty is not part of their road to riches beliefs. As for working for free. Are you having a laugh? Not a cats hope in hell.
There are apprenticeships out there, always has been just not in the numbers you think there should be. The numbers taken on depend on the workload. At the minute things are not great but there are still some who will be taken on in the summer.

 

[kirkgas]

wrong.lol.

the only thing i can see wrong with it is that i use 3412 to convert btu to kw, but it wont change the answer