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coursemyhorse

Hi guys, well a couple of years ago in this thread you very kindly helped me with a problem my house had with the heating and HW. I was very happy as it sorted the knocking noise I was having. Heating has always been a bit problematic and the stat always needs to be up high to come on but hey.

Today I have a different problem. This has been happening on and off for about 6 months. I have had the letting agents plumber and electrician out 2-3 times EACH, and they cannot find the problem. They are totally useless in my opinion. I have had them out probaly ten times since we have rented here and never fixed a thing. I only fixed the problem 2 years ago from help from on here myself.

So the current issue is this:
The heating gets stuck on. If we turn the heating on manually via the programmer in the airing cupboard, or timed automatically to come on, either way it will then not turn off. So if we manually turn the programer heating to off or the programmer automatically as part of the program turns it off, heat still gets chucked out of the radiators and the boiler still remains on and the pump in the airing cupboard. The only way to get it to turn off, is to turn the boiler in the kitchen off or muck about with turning it off and on/reset a few times. Sometimes this still doesn't work and we have to leave the boiler physically off for an hour or more. One day we had to keep turning it on and off about ten times to get it to turn off and stay off.

The heating does "work" and get hot otherwise. The HW works ok. The HW I don't think gets stuck on because we often run out of hot water so that's how I can tell it is not always running. It seems only the CH gets stuck on. I'd massively appreciate some help with this. :(

Cheers guys

EDIT: Also turning the stat down does not get it to turn off either.
 
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Also forgot to say as part of the diagnosis and attempted fixes by the "electrician" and "plumber" that we have had round before several times they have:

1: Performed extensive electrical tests and cannot find an issue
2: Replaced programmer for a new one
3: Replaced thermostat (although this was over a year ago as part of my original original problem)

The boiler is also annually serviced and safety checked.
 
You need an electrician or plumber that is familiar with heating controls, otherwise, as you have seen it's a waste of time.
 
sounds life a wiring or control fault,
possibly the plumber and electrician are as you described, or the problem is intermittent and difficult to trace.
need to work through the sequence of controls and wires to find out what is what and where.
more details about the type of boiler and controls could be useful.
but really hands on is probably the only solution.
if its rented just keep nagging the landlord.
 
Oh everytime they come out we get told "it's all working fine" and that they can't replicate the issue. Funny we manage to replicate it 99.999999% of the time. It is intermittent on that basis, but it occurs honestly more than 90% of the time we turn the heating on in the last 6 months.
It's a Worcester boiler in the kitchen, cylinder in the airing cupboard and stat on the stairs (moved there from originally downstairs as part of a previous problem diagnosis where the stat needs to be turned to like 27c to come on - still like this but not sure related to this problem).
Airing cupboard looks like below pic which is from the old thread where someone uploaded it with the coloured in bits.

1136d1285515374-some-advice-two-different-problems-please-img_5758.jpg
 
Oh one other thing. That white box thing I think is a 3 way valve right? I have personally asked if it could be that and plumber is like "nah". The black "lever" or switch if you will, on the rear of it sometimes feels...well...funny to me. Like it's all loose and popped out of the housing. Not sure if that is related at all or if it's meant to be like that. I'm - as you can tell - not a plumber or electrician and do not pretend to be. Apologies.

EDIT: It's not that the 3 way valve would get stuck on heating only? How can I test this?
 
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The reason you run out of hot water is your cyl stat is too high
 
I told you the answer in post 2. Specifically the "white box thing". Most likely a sticking microswitch. Tap it with a something and it will go off.
Change the head.
 
the valve could be stuck open and giving power to the boiler
the orange wire is what gives power for the heating
if that is live when there is no call for heat from the thermostat and programmer and with the hot water also off then you have indentified the problem, but surely thy checked this? ( the water side for a 3 port valve is a different story )

do you have a unit that all the wires for the boiler and controls go to? do any tests there.

rethink - what I described is more indicative of a fault with a 2 port valve which has a permanent live feed. you would still need to find the feed to the valve.
- does the problem happen when the boiler is set to be on for hot water?
in that case you would have power to the boiler and would indicate the valve not fully closing off the heating
 
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As tamz mentioned. In the majority of cases in these issues it is problems with the actuator head/body. "white box thing".
A decent gas engineer will know how to test for sure.
It may be the head itself or the body seizing up and causing issues.

Your thermostat is a different issue. The cheaper ones are never that accurate with relation to actual temperature anyway.
 
Thanks for the help so far guys.
I wonder why my plumber always give it the "naaaah" it won't be that, when I ask if it's the actuator head/body (white box). A gas engineer would know how to test you say? Why would one be needed, I mean... a Gas engineer is different to a plumber right?
I don't see an orange wire...just green/yellow (presumably earth) wires and white wires. I do not know of this "location" where everything comes into no.

So the 3 way valve, the white box on top, is that just an electric component or mechanical as well to operate the valve? Presumably no water would come out if I changed the white head only as this just controls the actual valve inside the pipes below it right? Is it possible it is still the actual valve inside the pipe that is the problem? How much is a new head (white box).?

Oh and Tamz, I saw you reply and thanks, but I was after a more permanent solution than hitting with a hammer each time I need to turn the heating off.

Cheers
 
The reason you run out of hot water is your cyl stat is too high

Can you explain what you mean? Too high as in location on the cyclinder, or too high as in temperature? I do not understand either way why this would make the HW run out. My understanding of running out of HW was that we only have it on a couple of times a day, once in morning for a couple of hours and once in the afternoon. I thought perhaps we do not have it on enough and need to adjust it. Anyway, different issue. Thanks for your help.
 
Stat fitted too high on cylinder will turn the heat to the cylinder off when only that depth of the cylinder if up to heat, hence a lot less hot water storage.
 
The valve is an ACL /Drayton. Depending how old it is the head may just lift off by pressing a button. Heads are generally not much cheaper than buying the full valve.

FYI and to help your "plumber / electrician" these are the voltages you should be getting on the end of the black cable coming from the valve (there are 5 wires in it orange white and grey (switch wires) a neutral and an earth). If he pulls out a neon screwdriver he is most likely clueless.

When it is off you should have 0 volts (tested against a N or earth) on the orange and white and 230v (or there abouts) on the grey.
HW only........230v on the orange and 0v on the white and grey
HW & CH .......... 230v on the orange and white and a reduced voltage on the grey.
CH only .........230v on orange white and grey
 
nothing wrong with cylinder stat, getting to techncal guys, and faulty zone valve causing heating to stay on. you will be able to tell if its the body by keeping hot water turned off when turning only the heating on
 
nothing wrong with cylinder stat, getting to techncal guys, and faulty zone valve causing heating to stay on. you will be able to tell if its the body by keeping hot water turned off when turning only the heating on

The stat is too high on the cylinder. It should be a third of the way up.
 
Hi guys thought op says photo is-not of is cylinder so in this case stat not a problem, sounds like he has same 3 port whitch is poss the fault or somthing in wireing center (Loose wire) not a good idea to try and change this your self if you disturb any wires in main box you could be in a world of pain, apart from getting a eletctric shock Plumber no good for this job get landlord to call in a Gas Heating chap.
 
The picture IS of my airing cupboard, only a member here last time I posted coloured in the water flow bits.
UPDATE:
This morning, the HW was set to come on as normal at about 6:!5am, and the CH was set to OFF from the day before so there was no way it should have come on at all. Normally the problem is when we put the CH on manually it will not turn off. But...

this morning I woke up and the Radiators were hot. I checked the programmer and the HW was ON as it should be and the CH was indeed set to OFF. I went into the airing cupboard and whacked the controller head and valve several times with a shoe and heard no click or any sound resembling something had happened. But about 10 minutes later the radiators got colder. Maybe a coincidence, or maybe me hitting it did do something.

I'm not sure it had done this before where we wake up and the CH is on from not having even been turned on at all.

Hope this helps diagnose.

Also about the stat on the cylinder, can someone explain to me in laymans terms why it needs to be moved down. I do not understand. I'm really sorry. I have read why above, but do not understand. Is it easy to move down lower myself? Does a thermal probe actually enter the cylinder or it is just reading it by contacting the cylinder metal? I have never taken one off and looked at it so don't want to muck about with things until I know what is involved I mean.

Thankyou so much
 
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It's just in contact with the cylinder. Because the cylinder is hotter at the top the hot water will turn off sooner if the stat is higher and you will have less hot water. It should be sited around a third of the way up the cylinder for optimum performance. This is basic stuff and any heating engineer should know it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Maybe a coincidence, or maybe me hitting it did do something.

Hope this helps diagnose.

The problem has already been diagnosed by tamz. You won't have heard the microswitch click because bashing it with a shoe would have made a louder sound. If you still doubt his diagnosis (which a couple of others have agreed with), then follow his very clear test procedure next time you get the problem.

Also about the stat on the cylinder, can someone explain to me in laymans terms why it needs to be moved down. I do not understand. I'm really sorry. I have read why above, but do not understand. Is it easy to move down lower myself? Does a thermal probe actually enter the cylinder or it is just reading it by contacting the cylinder metal? I have never taken one off and looked at it so don't want to muck about with things until I know what is involved I mean.

No thermal probe in the cylinder, it's surface contact. Moving it down will help because heat rises, so water in the cylinder gets heated from the top down. A stat at the top of the cylinder will therefore cut the boiler off after the top of the cylinder has reached the required temperature. A stat mounted lower down will keep the boiler running until a larger part of the cylinder has reached temperature, thereby giving you a larger body of hot water, which obviously will give you hot water for longer. As for moving it yourself - no disrespect but an "easy job" for one person could be a nightmare for another. Only you can decide whether you'd be able to do it.

Where are you based? Maybe one of the professionals on here who have given you such good advice could pop round and sort it for you. It does seem as though your "plumber/electrician" may be in over his head a little bit, so perhaps better to spend a bit of money on someone who has demonstrated good knowledge in the field?
 
Sure. At the end of the day, my landlord/agency should sort all these issues by sending people able to do the job, which I will be taking up with them. The stat I understand now and will move that down myself. Thankyou. The replacement of the actuator etc, I will say to them that I want doing or I will just get someone to do it for me then bill them. The plumber is a nice guy, just incompetent in my opinion. The electrician is blunt and I think knows his stuff. But my plumber and electrician always seem to blame each other. "Looks fine on my side so I will contact plumber and get him to check stuff" and vice versa.

I'm still a bit confused about this need for a "gas engineer" to take a look but yeah, diagnosis from earlier sounds correct. Thankyou very much. Tamz and co please do not take offense, I have seen your comments and take them onboard. I am just trying to understand it all to have info to go back to them on it all. Thankyou kindly.
 
The plumber is a nice guy, just incompetent in my opinion. The electrician is blunt and I think knows his stuff. But my plumber and electrician always seem to blame each other. "Looks fine on my side so I will contact plumber and get him to check stuff" and vice versa.

I'm still a bit confused about this need for a "gas engineer" to take a look

Not every plumber understands electrical systems. Not every electrician understands the specifics of heating control systems. A heating engineer should have that specific knowledge.
 
Hi coursemyhorse ... Just a thought, if the valve is hard against the wall it could interfering with the spring return on the valve. The position indicator lever attached to the actuator looks like it may be hard against the wall? You may be able to leaver the valve off the wall 1/2cm or chop a groove in the wall if it is causing an issue? Otherwise take the advise Tamz has given you. Print it off andhand it to your sparky! What boiler do you have fitted? Some older boilers can cause the pump and boiler to stay on when faulty!
 
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Just another thought ! is the 3 port valve the right way round ??
 
I don't know how to check if it is the right way around.
I pulled the actuator head back from the wall as hard as I could to see down the side of it a tiny bit and I can see there is already a groove cut into the wall for supposedly the above mentioned reason of the lever arm being able to move freely. I can't really see as it's very tight and hard to move.
There were some comments in my old thread a year or two ago I made on here when I posted pictures, that the general plumbing of the airing cupboard was not brilliant and that something was the wrong side of the pump, but should still work.
 
The black bit on the front ! Push it in and lift the head off!!!

You can't fit these heads the wrong way around but if they are not filly pushed home on their seat you can get the actuator missing the valve arm! Not saying that's your issue coursemyhorse but it'll eliminate it if it isn't :)
 
Have a look on valve body should be mark'd (AB Center) (A heating) (B Hot water)
 
Plumber is coming round next week. I basically told him I needed a new actuator head. We will see. I will let you guys know! ta
 
On the picture why are there two pipes connected on the flow pipe just before the circulating pump?
 
From the bottom up on the flow:
Flow from boiler
Feed
Expansion
Bypass

Feed and expansion wrong way around and bypass in wrong position.
3 tees wrong out of 3. Fitted by a halfwit.
 
From the bottom up on the flow:
Flow from boiler
Feed
Expansion
Bypass

Feed and expansion wrong way around and bypass in wrong position.
3 tees wrong out of 3. Fitted by a halfwit.

That's an injustice, sure it's a full wit :)
 
Nah Simon, Tom was being generous. That boy would be hard pushed to make it as a halfwit! Probably the same cretin that throws pipes in New build houses over here.

I say throw cos what he's done definitely ain't plumbing!
 
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