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No idea with what type of system i will require for a 6 bedroom/bathroom house

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Amar

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Hi all, I'm a home owner/investor looking to pick some brains of knowledgeable heating engineers and plumbers.

I have just purchased a house, currently a 1970's style 3 bedroom 1 main bathroom and downstairs WC property. currently using a 24kw Worcester combi boiler

I am looking to convert it into a 6 bedroom, 6 en suite house.
The issue I have is, I've had a plumber come and give me a price. He is suggesting to have 2x electric showers and the other 4x mixer showers, sinks and kitchen sink plus the radiators off a 35kw combination boiler.

I'm not a plumber but this seems like a bad idea. I have a combi boiler at home and the pressure is horrible if someone is washing dishes downstairs whilst another person is in the shower. I am happy to have 2 electric showers if the electrician thinks its ok so potentially it may only need to supply 4/5x mixer showers

Would type of system would you recommend for this amount of bathrooms if the water pressure was good. These are the systems I have read about but im unsure of what would be right/efficient system without running out of hot water all the time.

I will in time be getting quotes of local engineers but I'm trying to inform myself a bit first to make sure what should be fitted is correct rather then being palmed off with the easiest thing.

storage combi?
thermal store?
vented system?
unvented system?
Are there any other types that would suit this type of layout?

what kind of costs are we talking per system if there were 15x 700x700 radiators.

Boiler could stay in the kitchen and any of the above systems have a tank in the loft or the possible other location would be under the stairs but again I had the image of needing something like 500l tank for 6 bathrooms. Would this be able to fit in the loft or under stairs? or do they have to be situated together?

Thanks, all comments welcome including Sod takes
 
Hahaha bin that plumber off combis won't do two outlets let alone 4 haha

Two 300l unvented cylinders and secondary return if you have the space

Cost wise your best option would to get a few quotes

I have a feeling you would need to upgrade the boiler as well

But you do need a fair bit of space if you do plan to put the cylinders in the loft have a word with a structural engineer (you might need to beef the loft supports up)
 
I would say that maybe a conventional boiler and not a combi. With 2 unvented cylinders if you have the capability. But that also depends on how many baths you are fitting. Anybody else with any ideas?
 
Thanks for your input guys. Yeah you should have seen the face I pulled when he sid a 35kw combi. ha

Space is abit tight as I'm squeezing in another 3 bedrooms out of the property even converting the garage so the only space I have really is under the stairs, which isn't that big, the loft or split the larger main bathroom into 2 and use half as tank location.

There aren't any baths, just 800x800 shower trays. small basins, toilets and the kitchen sink. washing machines are off cold water. I think?
 
I agree with the points above, unvented cylinders and a system boiler if space isn't low, keep in mind you can buy horizontal cylinders, this may be the best option if you have a low loft space, side by side installation. Secondary hot water circuit is a must and also make sure you get the plumber to work out the correct pipe size, the flow from the hot outlet of your cylinder needs to be able to cope with the majority if not all your showers operating at the same time, at xmas for example or Monday mornings!

I can see his point in make 2no showers electric if they are only for people to use every now and then

Your cold mains supply will need to be considered as the incoming pressure and flow rate may not be sufficient to cope with your demand and performance expectations
 
well, tbh, the rooms will be rented to working professionals and they wont know each other. so I'm guessing/hoping they shower everyday so the electric showers should be in use daily.

Do you guys think you could get a 500l tank in a 1.5 x 1.5m space? or is that size tank overkill?

Thinking of using the old airing cupboard for the tank rather then the loft. I don't fancy having to brace the loft with steels or anything? Do you think having the tank upstairs is safe and not too heavy for having on the 1st floor joists?

What kind of flow rate should it need to be coming into the house? does it need to be 22mm plastic pipe? If it was just 15mm pipe or lead pipe can I get a builder to install 22 plastic pipe from the house to the road?
 
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I would get a 32mm water main installed

And where are you located?
 
Amar said:
Do you guys think you could get a 500l tank in a 1.5 x 1.5m space? or is that size tank overkill?
Click to expand...
probably need that space for pipework alone let alone the tank. Dont think you can get a 500l domestic tank...id say a 300l just for showers and hot taps would be ample tho.
 
sammathias said:
probably need that space for pipework alone let alone the tank. Dont think you can get a 500l domestic tank...id say a 300l just for showers and hot taps would be ample tho.
Click to expand...

That would supply hot water for about 14-16 mins to depleted
 
Sorry shaun. I understand now. By the sounds of it tho he hasnt got space for one 300l cylinder let alone 2
 
sammathias said:
Sorry shaun. I understand now. By the sounds of it tho he hasnt got space for one 300l cylinder let alone 2
Click to expand...

Yea he could go instant eg Worcester green spring but pressure is key
 
ShaunCorbs said:
Yea he could go instant eg Worcester green spring but pressure is key
Click to expand...
How did you suggest 14-16minutes?? Surely all depends on supply and flow rate of showers etc. I means. Decent mixer showers deliever like 14l/min...
 
sammathias said:
How did you suggest 14-16minutes?? Surely all depends on supply and flow rate of showers etc. I means. Decent mixer showers deliever like 14l/min...
Click to expand...

On an 300l unvented cylinder

4 showers each limited to around 10lpm

So that's 40 lpm so half that for a mix of hot and cold so that's 20lpm ish

300l divide by 20 gives you around 15mins at full load

Then approximately an hour and a half re heating depending on boiler loading
 
ShaunCorbs said:
I would get a 32mm water main installed

And where are you located?
Click to expand...

I am located in Coventry but the house being purchased is located in Telford. is there anyone on here that is local and registered to install unvented systems?
 
Thanks for all your comments guys. really is appreciated. who said plumbing was easy! ha So from what I gather I would definitely need a 500l tank or 2x 250-300l tanks? for 4 showers?

I was speaking to a family member of mine in London who has 250l tank unvented system, they have just 1 large shower cubicle shared between 4 members of his family, 2x older teens and both parents and he did say there has been occasions where the tank has gone cold ( I think he said it was mainly because someone had turned the hot water off) but they would have to wait well over an hour to have hot water again
 
A correctly designed system should not be going cold, takin into consideration I don't know what's else the they have on a system a 250L cylinder for one shower does seem excessive for me, I base my calculations on a average a Shower using 80L max

I think you need to pay for a trusted qualified engineer to make a site visit and design the system properly
 
Amar said:
Thanks, all comments welcome including **** takes
Click to expand...

Such systems need to be designed and installed rather carefully by someone who specialises in 'small hotel' type properties. Things like usage patterns and also how much you are willing to pay for behaviour such as 'never' runs out out hot water vs 'very rarely'. Your first plumber clearly doesn't have a clue.

Same goes for wiring, you need a sparks who understands the the usage pattern.

Make sure you have thought about ventilation. Six showers can put a lot of humid air into the building and if the ventilation isn't up to snuff you'll have major damp/mold problems.
 
Thanks for everyone's input. Really appreciate it!

On another note (I'm going to hijack my own thread)

I am in the middle of purchasing another property up north. It's based over 3 floors plus a large cellar. Currently a 7 bedroom and looking to convert it into a 10 bedroom, 10 bathroom house.

It is so old it doesn't even have any central heating or a boiler. It still has the old slave quarters above the kitchen at the back of the house. (it really is a blast from the past)

Again I will be looking to get some local heating engineers out to quote me (anyone from stoke fancy it) once planning has gone through but in the meantime I again am trying to get my head around what can be possible.

So my idea was to have a boiler purely for the hot water by an unvented system, I guessing 3x 300l tanks? overkill?? situated in the cellar. Would it have enough pumping power to send the water up 2 floors to 3 bathrooms on the top floor, 5x bathrooms on the 1st floor and 2 bathrooms ground floor. All mixer showers but I will be fitting some sort of eco friendly shower heads and taps also to help save with water usage.

And then have a separate boiler just for the central heating. 10x towel radiators and 15x 1000x700 double radiators.

imguessing this wont be an economical as having it all fed off 1 single boiler but are there other options?? commercial sized boiler as chuck mentioned?

Has anyone ever used electrical radiators in bedrooms instead??
Ecostrad Eco 15 Electric Panel Radiator - 1500w
 
If you go for a fast recovery cylinder, something like a Joule Cyclone High Gain for example, and match it to an appropriate boiler on a hot water priority setup, you can get away with a much smaller cylinder. A 300L Cyclone HG will heat up from cold in just 17 minutes, and if the boiler is firing while the showers are on I think your biggest issue would be whether the mains can keep up rather than whether the cylinder is big enough. They also do a 400 and 500L version
 
Hi, with the development of a property for letting its commercial.
The rent pays back the investment etc.
I would edge my bet, one C H system and one hot water system.
Although it a long time ago that i fitted them, Andrews gas water or alike heaters were extremely quick to heat water. Positioning is most important, as in the event of a problem, servicing etc access without disturbing the tenants is paramount. Also the charges for up sizing the water main are far from cheap. Finding room at say the rear of the property and constructing a plant room against the building to house water heater and possibly a break tank holding water for both hot /cold and pumped. If the area is converting to flats/rooms mains water pressure will get worse.
Your existing boiler will take care of heating.
What ever you do please remember any excuse not to pay rent should be expected. Invest wisely.
Good Luck
 
I often suggest an electric shower if people have more than one bathroom, always handy should anything happen to the hot water system.
 
You need a Heating Engineer with Commercial experience to advise you properly.

In my opinion you would be better off paying for someone to design and specify.
 
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