Plumbing Licence

[oz-plumber]

Hi CW.
Plumbers in the UK don't need to be qualified, much the same as Electricians.
If you want to play with gas, then that's a whole different ballgame.


Hi all,

I cut and pasted this from another thread.

Is this the case with Plumbing and Electrical work in the UK.

People get fined and prosecuted in court over here for doing their own Plumbing & Electrical work.
They are 2 separate trades and you have to have completed a 4 year apprenticeship in each to obtain a licence / registration.

There was a case over here regarding and unlicensed electrician, he was fined @ £50,000 ( current conversion rates )
and the judge claimed that if a jail sentence could be implemented, the 'so-called' electrician would have done time.
Mind you this was a fairly serious set of circumstances.

How long has this been the situation over in the UK?

Oz Plumber

 

[Killy Bing]

In the uk things only get done when people are getting killed by something, with plumbing it takes a fair cock up to do that.

gas however...

 

[gasmanrob]

I would be one to vote in favour of something like this in the uk. What I dont agree with is in oz you need a different licence for different territories.

although there is talk of introducing a scheme like this in the motor industry. But you are correct people are free to ruin there own homes and potentially cause serious health risks without the risk of prosecution

 

[Killy Bing]

I don't want any other body telling me what to do. Gassafe are there for the gas. But doesn't stop people doing gas work. Or make the gas trade more profitable

It's just going to be another drain on our bank accounts

And if this wasn't a public forum I would be more vocal about my views

Put simply. NO!

i would be open to it if they sorted out the gas and oil first.

 

[gasmanrob]

Sorry but I strongly disagree. I'd love to see people accountable for the work they do. The likes of us are already so why shouldn't joe public be made to stand up and held to account for shoddy work that threatens life or property and puts the sanitary conditions of potable water at risk.

Joe public thinks we rip them off because our prices are too high and they can do it cheaper... But did they account for the check valves needed on the bidet did they put in the drain valve just after the stopcock? Small things that put our prices up that they don't see, or know about or understand why it needs to be there

 

[Ray Stafford]

Having thought about this for many years, I don't believe its worth the loss of freedom.

This supposed to be a free country. We accept some limits on freedom for the general good - so to be a doctor, lawyer, dentist or gas-fitter, you have to be regulated.

Plumbing just isn't in that category.

And where does it stop? So car mechanics lobby to prevent me from working on my own car? How long before roofers want to stop me nipping up a ladder to sort out that ridge tile?
Or will professional cooks object to my wife making her beef stroganoff unless she qualifies as food safe?

All these things can kill if done wrong. I bet they kill far more people than DIY plumbing does.

And I find it very, very hard to believe that anything is ever improved by a "government scheme".

 

[Killy Bing]

Interestingly, only airline pilots have to retrain more than we do.

 

[lame plumber]

based on all the exams I do, I wpould like to see it made illegal to sell gas related products to anyone without a ticket, easily set up and not expensive to run, ie just like ru 18 for booze a card is all u need to prove it.

 

[sheff paul]

Hi CW.
Plumbers in the UK don't need to be qualified, much the same as Electricians.
If you want to play with gas, then that's a whole different ballgame.


Hi all,

I cut and pasted this from another thread.

Is this the case with Plumbing and Electrical work in the UK.

People get fined and prosecuted in court over here for doing their own Plumbing & Electrical work.
They are 2 separate trades and you have to have completed a 4 year apprenticeship in each to obtain a licence / registration.

There was a case over here regarding and unlicensed electrician, he was fined @ £50,000 ( current conversion rates )
and the judge claimed that if a jail sentence could be implemented, the 'so-called' electrician would have done time.
Mind you this was a fairly serious set of circumstances.

How long has this been the situation over in the UK?

Oz Plumber

If that is the case Skippy,why can you shuffle down to Bunnings (oz bQ) and buy any plumbing gear you need,its the trades men who suffer in OZ,read between the lines chaps,if they brought out a 'Plumbing licence' here we would have another bill same as gassafe to pay,and joe public would still buy gear from BQ,and do there own stuff,been there and got the t shirt,In Perth there is plenty of Kosovans,Slovaks,plumbing with out a licence,do the plumbing police go after them noooo,do they sting brits for a ****load of money to pick up a spanner yessss,get real Skippy,

 

[Ray Stafford]

based on all the exams I do, I wpould like to see it made illegal to sell gas related products to anyone without a ticket, easily set up and not expensive to run, ie just like ru 18 for booze a card is all u need to prove it.

I hear this a lot, but I honestly don't think is practical or desirable.

I buy more gas related products than any of you, yet I don't have a ticket. And the difference between us and the back-bedroom re-seller is simply one of scale. In principle, we are both merchants.

Despite our "trade-only" policy, a very large number of our customers are not gas-safe registered but are still legit - they are housing associations, councils, MOD, universities, etc etc.

Also, we sell tons of products that "might be" gas-related, but might not.

We don't need new laws. We need the current ones enforcing.

 

[Ermintrude]

You don't even need to be GSR if it's an industrial process. Scary really.

 

[stevetheplumber]

i think the reasoning behind the factories exemption is a lot of the process are so specialised there just couldn't be enough categories of acs to take tests in each process. its a train on the job situation

 

[Masood]

i think the reasoning behind the factories exemption is a lot of the process are so specialised there just couldn't be enough categories of acs to take tests in each process. its a train on the job situation

Yo Steve, did you get my message? Call me mate!!!

/hijack

 

[Ray Stafford]

If you think about most sales of gas boilers (for instance) they are business to business transactions.

Manufacturer sells to distributor
Distributor sells to large merchant
Large merchant sells to small merchant
Small merchant sells to installer
Installer sells to builder (at the point of installation)
Builder sells to customer (by this time the appliance is part of the building)

Its a complex supply chain.

The part to regulate is the installation, not the sale.

 

[Howsie]

Interestingly, only airline pilots have to retrain more than we do.

And where did you get that little gem from?

 

[Masood]

The part to regulate is the installation, not the sale.

That's like prosecuting drug users instead of the pushers. We all know that the only way to take the scourge of illegal gas work off our streets is to go after the dealers...

 

[Ray Stafford]

That's like prosecuting drug users instead of the pushers. We all know that the only way to take the scourge of illegal gas work off our streets is to go after the dealers...

Yeah, I am the [video=youtube;qNWvdtt5sxs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNWvdtt5sxs&feature=kp[/video]

 

[Ermintrude]

Let's all boycott plumbs for a day? Bloody boiler pushers!

Factories and processes would benefit from a safety check , lads that work on systems generally go blind to faults as they see them every day. H&S audits infrequently pick it up.

 

[Worcester]

Try the renewables sector then

We have to be certified and are checked every year for every type we install, we have to pay fees to at least three different bodies - we actually pay them to FIVE regulatory bodies - and MUST purchase insurance warranty for EVERY installation, on top of that we are audited by each of those bodies for all of our paperwork and have to prove our documented procedures every year... that's about 16 days a year just chasing regulatory paperwork.

So as we are are qualified for heat pumps (ground and air), biomass, solar thermal, solar pv, air conditioning, G3, electrics ... just think of the amount of time we already spend on paperwork for every job - a MINIMUM of 8 HOURS.. plus all those luverly fees to third parties.... don't expect us to be cheaper than Joe (unregistered) Plumber ....

 

[Ray Stafford]

Try the renewables sector then

We have to be certified and are checked every year for every type we install, we have to pay fees to at least three different bodies - we actually pay them to FIVE regulatory bodies - and MUST purchase insurance warranty for EVERY installation, on top of that we are audited for all of our paperwork and have to prove our documented procedures every year...

So as we are are qualified for heat pumps (ground and air), biomass, solar thermal, solar pv, air conditioning, G3, electrics ... just think of the amount of time we already spend on paperwork for every job - a MINIMUM of 8 HOURS.. plus all those luverly fees to third parties.... don't expect us to be cheaper than Joe (unregistered) Plumber ....

Hi Gordon.

I don't think any of that is a legal requirement though is it? Its just required if you want to play in one of the schemes.

Don't misunderstand me, I campaigned vigorously (well, ok, I supported MickW campaigning vigorously) for a simplification of MCS paperwork, but they aren't law in the same way that gas regs are, as I understand it?

 

[Reg Man]

Hi CW.
Plumbers in the UK don't need to be qualified, much the same as Electricians.
If you want to play with gas, then that's a whole different ballgame.


Hi all,

I cut and pasted this from another thread.

Is this the case with Plumbing and Electrical work in the UK.

People get fined and prosecuted in court over here for doing their own Plumbing & Electrical work.
They are 2 separate trades and you have to have completed a 4 year apprenticeship in each to obtain a licence / registration.

There was a case over here regarding and unlicensed electrician, he was fined @ £50,000 ( current conversion rates )
and the judge claimed that if a jail sentence could be implemented, the 'so-called' electrician would have done time.
Mind you this was a fairly serious set of circumstances.

How long has this been the situation over in the UK?

Oz Plumber

Respect to the Australian trades regulations. I like the way they control things.

 

[chris watkins]

Try the renewables sector then

We have to be certified and are checked every year for every type we install, we have to pay fees to at least three different bodies - we actually pay them to FIVE regulatory bodies - and MUST purchase insurance warranty for EVERY installation, on top of that we are audited by each of those bodies for all of our paperwork and have to prove our documented procedures every year... that's about 16 days a year just chasing regulatory paperwork.

So as we are are qualified for heat pumps (ground and air), biomass, solar thermal, solar pv, air conditioning, G3, electrics ... just think of the amount of time we already spend on paperwork for every job - a MINIMUM of 8 HOURS.. plus all those luverly fees to third parties.... don't expect us to be cheaper than Joe (unregistered) Plumber ....

Well if you want to draw down government (our tax) money then we must make sure that it's all installed correctly & that the companies that carry out this work are run correctly & are not going to rip us off as might of happened in the past.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Well if you want to draw down government (our tax) money then we must make sure that it's all installed correctly & that the companies that carry out this work are run correctly & are not going to rip us off as might of happened in the past.

If it achieved that goal Chris, I might support it. I have no problem with the technical requirements, and can take the mandatory insurance scheme at a push. But the QMS stuff is complete balls.

 

[WaterTight]

I'd say most people still don't even seem to realise you need to be gas safe to work on gas. I don't advertise it but am asked to work with it all the time just because they've heard I'm a plumber. Imagine how much attention the public would pay to a scheme saying you need to be licensed and vetted to fix a toilet.

 

[chris watkins]

Respect to the Australian trades regulations. I like the way they control things.

Maybe some of the plumbers on here may change there minds if they new that the ordinary plumber working on a building site in the city earns around £60,000 a year (£ not AU$) for a 40 hour week. There is a respect of the skill set that they have, that is measured in pound notes not in a free floating market that can be joined by anyone who fancies joining a couple of pipes together & stating that they are a plumber cos they got bored working in an office.

 

[Worcester]

Hi Gordon.
I don't think any of that is a legal requirement though is it? Its just required if you want to play in one of the schemes.

98% of the renewables market wants the Green Deal or RHI to assist with the capital costs, (it's what is driving the growth) so to be in that market we have to comply.

You are correct that if the customers don't want RHI or the GD, then we don't have to comply so it isn't 'law'. However our business would be 1/10 of the size .. so to be a player in the market we have no option.

One thing it does though is sort out the players from the chancers..

 

[Worcester]

Well if you want to draw down government (our tax) money then we must make sure that it's all installed correctly & that the companies that carry out this work are run correctly & are not going to rip us off as might of happened in the past.

Like all those c**p ECO funded boiler replacements ???? - That's your money too, and they don't have to comply with what we do.

 

[Worcester]

I agree it's our choice, and I don't mind it - it's what sets us apart

 

[chris watkins]

If it achieved that goal Chris, I might support it. I have no problem with the technical requirements, and can take the mandatory insurance scheme at a push. But the QMS stuff is complete balls.

Sorry Ray I should of made my post a bit more tongue in cheek, as it was intended, all crap, just stops the small guys joining in & make's for example a solar thermal cost 5K+ instead of 1.5K tops.
Now that there is a market in some of this stuff, maybe the market should be allowed to function !!!
See there is manipulation of markets across the country / world, in all sectors & in many forms, maybe not so wrong to control the plumbing labour one directly not indirectly.

 

[lame plumber]

98% of the renewables market wants the Green Deal or RHI to assist with the capital costs, (it's what is driving the growth) so to be in that market we have to comply.

You are correct that if the customers don't want RHI or the GD, then we don't have to comply so it isn't 'law'. However our business would be 1/10 of the size .. so to be a player in the market we have no option.

One thing it does though is sort out the players from the chancers..

if there wasnt so much BS involved, I'd consider the eco market, but as a small company its not worth all the hassle, so I have to let it ride, its nothing to do with players and chancers, if anything its the chancers that always seem to hop on board these schemes initially and then pack it in further on down the line. So far Ive seen 3 reasonable companies go bust trying to do a decent job but getting the figures wrong.

 

[Ermintrude]

Pas 2020 and all the other Eco pap is set up to keep joe and mates out and the boys clubs in centrica?

 

[oz-plumber]

Having thought about this for many years, I don't believe its worth the loss of freedom.

This supposed to be a free country. We accept some limits on freedom for the general good - so to be a doctor, lawyer, dentist or gas-fitter, you have to be regulated.

Plumbing just isn't in that category.

And where does it stop? So car mechanics lobby to prevent me from working on my own car? How long before roofers want to stop me nipping up a ladder to sort out that ridge tile?
Or will professional cooks object to my wife making her beef stroganoff unless she qualifies as food safe?

All these things can kill if done wrong. I bet they kill far more people than DIY plumbing does.

And I find it very, very hard to believe that anything is ever improved by a "government scheme".

Hi Ray,

In response to your post, you have made some valid points, but I think you are wrong about not classifying Plumbing as a restricted trade.

A doctor couldn't care whether you bought aspirin from a shop for a headache.
A dentist couldn't care whether or not you pulled your own tooth out with pliers.
A lawyer would be delighted if you were representing yourself in court - against him/her.

We are not told what to do over here, we follow sets of regulation outlined by a governing authority. It the same as following MI's for commissioning of a boiler - if you follow the instructions you don't have a problem.
If you are stuck with a problem - read the regulations / instructions.

It is intended that all works should be done to a standard and be uniform - it does get annoying at times but they are the rules of the game.
If you don't want to play by the rules - do so at your own risk.
There are consequences.

Plumbing is a fairly lucrative job over here and its partly due to the fact that the trade is restricted and regulated.
If you don't do a 4 year apprenticeship you can't get a ticket.
If you don't have a ticket you are awfully restricted where and what you can work on.

To put it bluntly: The trade is restricted and the restrictions are heavily enforced by the Plumbers in the game.
We want to protect our industry.

Honestly, if our trade was de-regulated we would probably have to work for 1/2 the amount we work for now.

Oz-Plumber

 

[chris watkins]

Plumbing is a fairly lucrative job over here and its partly due to the fact that the trade is restricted and regulated.
If you don't do a 4 year apprenticeship you can't get a ticket.
If you don't have a ticket you are awfully restricted where and what you can work on.

To put it bluntly: The trade is restricted and the restrictions are heavily enforced by the Plumbers in the game.
We want to protect our industry.

Honestly, if our trade was de-regulated we would probably have to work for 1/2 the amount we work for now.

Oz-Plumber

You would be lucky to work for half Oz, trust me there are guys working over here for a lot less.

 

[oz-plumber]

If that is the case Skippy,why can you shuffle down to Bunnings (oz bQ) and buy any plumbing gear you need,its the trades men who suffer in OZ,read between the lines chaps,if they brought out a 'Plumbing licence' here we would have another bill same as gassafe to pay,and joe public would still buy gear from BQ,and do there own stuff,been there and got the t shirt,In Perth there is plenty of Kosovans,Slovaks,plumbing with out a licence,do the plumbing police go after them noooo,do they sting brits for a ****load of money to pick up a spanner yessss,get real Skippy,

You're not a happy camper are you?

Try looking at the glass as 1/2 full instead 1/4 empty!

By the way,
How much did you get charged for picking up a spanner?

 

[gasmanrob]

If I hadn't of settled down I'd be in oz as we speak, but the wife won't move and I've established myself where I am.

Regardless of what you feel over having the government interfere with plumbing oz raises a key point!

the plumbers over there are keen to protect their trade and assist in enforcing rules and regs, everything done to a standard.

If we weren't so busy blaming the government and the governing body's for their short comings then maybe we could have come up with something that works that everyone is proud of.

I am proud to be a plumbing and heating engineer, I am proud to put my name to my work, I'm proud that I was taught lead work, working with barrel, and traditional plumbing methods. As well as working with new systems and products coming through. I am one of the last generations to come through college and have everything taught before things were dropped like lead work. I want to protect that if my boys decide to follow on in my footsteps I want to teach them the traditional values and techniques,

and I want to protect that!

Yes there are short comings in our current regulatory bodies but will moaning on an Internet forum see that change, No! Will moaning that you have to pay to be accredited to gas safe solve your problems, No!

The bodies are there to work for us, you get out what you put in. If you report someone chase it up find out what's going if you think something needs to change suggest if enough people do the same something may get done. And to everyone that follows this with "what's the point nobody will listen" then you are contributing to the problem.

There are morons that see this job as a means to put food on the table and nothing else. And I think those people need to be forced out of the industry as they are ruining it. Running a company for day rate cp12's for penny's. Cheapest products installed for maximum markup, where is the pride?

I see this job as something I love doing. I like the fact that when I drive past a row of houses I know my work is inside, and what's more I like that I can hold my head up high knowing I did the best job I could and got paid accordingly, what I dislike is quoting something under the same set of key values and then driving past the house seeing Polish Paul and his band of merry Bulgarians taking delivery of a ferroli and a b & q of the shelf bathroom.

I could rant on for hours on this as it's something I care about.

But ultimately the whole approach to the construction industry could do with a shake up and that's my take on it