Trying to get the heating working correctly

[thompa25]

Hi all, just moved into a new house (new for me, not brand new), and having a few issues with the central heating system. The bloke I was buying the house off did mention that sometimes the upstairs rads get hot, sometimes they dont. I was hoping it would just be a case of balancing the rads, or even as easy as bleeding them. I've since moved in and been playing around. The house is a bungalow but with an attic type room, which is the full size of the house. There are 3 double pannel rads upstairs and 1 towel rail in the en suite, and then a range of rads downstairs. The setup is a system boiler with a grundos pump on the outlet, then into a mid position valve, for either the heating, hot water or both. I attempted to balance the rads, but really had to shut lots of them in to get the rads upstairs working, to the point where i may struggle to heat the downstairs of the house. I tried bleeding them but they were fine. The grundfos pump was a ups 15-60 and looked very tired, so I changed it out for a grunfos ups2 15-50/60. The pump I removed was on setting 3, and the pump i replaced it with is now set to setting 3. Since changing out the pump it has made a difference, an have now got 2 of the double pannel rads upstairs getting red hot and the upstairs towel rail. I was able to open up a couple more rads downstairs and maintain this., however I am still stuck with 2 double pannel rads in the 2 spare bedrooms completely shut in, one of the 2 towel rails in the downstairs bathroom and a single panel rad in the hall shut it. I have also had to shut in one fo the upstairs double pannel rads as this was stone cold. Basically im not very experienced, and looking for a bit of guidance, will an uprated pump help solve my issue? The thing that is putting me off uprating the pump is the fact that it goes through the mid position valve after the pump, and also through the heating coil in the cylinder, which I dont want to over pressurise. The hot water side of things works fine, bar the fact that the separate hot water pump is controlled by a call for hot water by the controller, so not hot water if the hot water isnt switched on, but im going to istall a flow switch and control the pump this way, but thats a different story.


Sorry for the long winded explanation, hopefully someone can give me a few pointers.

Cheers

 

[Scott_D]

Does each radiator work on its own? No broken trvs for example?
What size is the pipe work to the radiators?
Was the loft an extension/conversion and the radiators tagged onto the existing pipework?

Post some pictures

 

[thompa25]

Yeah I can get each radiator to work on its own individually, if I shut in enough rads. The whole building was extended then refitted from scratch I believe. I'm not sure but I have a feeling the upstairs may have smaller pipework, i'm not at home right now as working away but will get the misses to take some pictures later on.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

How many rads ?

 

[thompa25]

5 double panels downstairs, 2 single panel downstairs, 2 large towel rails downstairs, 3 double rads upstairs, and a towel rails upstairs. If that was regards to how many rads did i have to shut in, I think it was 2 double rads completely, gagged in 2 quite far and shut 1 towel rail isolated, and the other one gagged in quite far

 

[ShaunCorbs]

5 double panels downstairs, 2 single panel downstairs, 2 large towel rails downstairs, 3 double rads upstairs, and a towel rails upstairs. If that was regards to how many rads did i have to shut in, I think it was 2 double rads completely, gagged in 2 quite far and shut 1 towel rail isolated, and the other one gagged in quite far

Not too bad pump should be man enough do you know the distance from the pump to the furthest rad / how long is the bungalow

 

[thompa25]

Roughly the furthest rad downstairs is 15m away from the boiler, and the furthest rad away upstairs is directly above that so what 15.5/16m directly, there is a head of about 3m or so

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Roughly the furthest rad downstairs is 15m away from the boiler, and the furthest rad away upstairs is directly above that so what 15.5/16m directly, there is a head of about 3m or so

Think it's a combination of Pipework and the pump (distance)

Do you know if it's open vented or sealed ?

 

[thompa25]

I'm am almost certain it is a sealed system, but i've only really had experience with combi boilers. I'm pretty sure there is no header tank, and I have a couple of expansion tanks on the hot water side of things. Sorry i'm pretty uneducated with system boiler setups

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I'm am almost certain it is a sealed system, but iv only really had experience with combi boilers. I'm pretty sure there is no header tank, and I have a couple of expansion tanks on the hot water side of things. Sorry i'm pretty uneducated with system boiler setups

Not a problem when your back there take some pics

If it's sealed you should see a red or grey expansion vessel

 

[thompa25]

Defiantly got a red and a grey expansion vessel, however one is shut it, and the other looks like an after fit, with no band supporting it on the wall, the pipework is supporting the weight, which I am going to have to address.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Defiantly got a red and a grey expansion vessel, however one is shut it, and the other looks like an after fit, with no band supporting it on the wall, the pipework is supporting the weight, which I am going to have to address.

Take some pics before hand and we can advise

 

[thompa25]

Will do mate, thanks for your help

 

[thompa25]

Managed to get some pictures from the misses, so one of the expansion vessels is not shut in. I've wired in the nest system to control it all and that works fine. A little explanation of what the black valve thing is would be appreciated, is it some sort of regulating valve for boosting the pressure from the cold water feed or something? Sorry for my lack of knowledge. Ignore all the black cables at the bottom of the pictures, they are sat cables that have been bundled up their, another job to sort out haha

 

[ShaunCorbs]

there great

couple of problems but will answer your q first

its a pressure reducing / regulating valve normally set to 3-3.5 bar

say your incoming pressure is 6 bar this regulates it down to 3-3.5 bar

problems serious ones

3 port valve on heating cant have one of these with an unvented cylinder system
temp and pressure relief valve isnt finished / installed correctly (cylinder)
pressure relief valve is finished / installed correctly (heating)
no pressure relief valve after pressure reducing valve

tbh the system looks a mess and needs work doing to it asap

by an approved engineer (g3 and gas safe registered)

would put a post in here to see if one of our members is/are close to you

Looking for a Heating Engineer? Post Jobs Here

 

[king of pipes]

Shaun where do you start bud alot needs sorting out there, employ a heating engineer to sort it is my advice cheers kop

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Shaun where do you start bud alot needs sorting out there, employ a heating engineer to sort it is my advice cheers kop

start one end and work either left or right

 

[king of pipes]

Rip it out and start again

 

[thompa25]

Thanks for the replies, I was hoping they wouldnt be the replies I got, but if it needs sorted it needs sorted. So im assuming that the PSV on the cylinder should go to a drain rather than just being open, where should the PSV on the heating system be located, and what should be used instead of a 3 way valve (it does say mid position v/v but im assuming that is practically the same)

 

[thompa25]

There has been alot of things hidden with this house think he tried to do everything himself, and did it poorly, already had to rip all the silicon out the shower and reseal, re-grout tiles where water was migrating behind, install a new trap on the sink because the angle was severe and it was actually leaking, and the sink was stuck to the wall with silicon, not screws securing it, and then stuck to the pedestal with plumbers mate. This house is turning into a nightmare having to fix loads of bodged jobs

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thanks for the replies, I was hoping they wouldnt be the replies I got, but if it needs sorted it needs sorted. So im assuming that the PSV on the cylinder should go to a drain rather than just being open, where should the PSV on the heating system be located, and what should be used instead of a 3 way valve (it does say mid position v/v but im assuming that is practically the same)

sorry to say i cant answer them just incase you try to fix the issue your self (i know you wont but its an open forum hope you understand)

also invalidates your home insurance

 

[ShaunCorbs]

There has been alot of things hidden with this house think he tried to do everything himself, and did it poorly, already had to rip all the silicon out the shower and reseal, re-grout tiles where water was migrating behind, install a new trap on the sink because the angle was severe and it was actually leaking, and the sink was stuck to the wall with silicon, not screws securing it, and then stuck to the pedestal with plumbers mate. This house is turning into a nightmare having to fix loads of bodged jobs

sorry to say with them sort of people theres alot more hidden/unexpected things

 

[thompa25]

Ahh right no problem mate, I should have read the rules, I assumed you couldn't give advice on the gas side of the system, must be the whole side. Im going to have to get an engineer round. Its just frustrating im in engineering myself and see some of the stuff that he has done and its shocking. Im going to have to rewire most of the house aswell (Im qualified for that haha)

 

[king of pipes]

House of horrors then bud a little knowledge is dangerous is the saying i am afraid you need a engineer to sort this one your system is unvented its installed incorrectly, why did he not fit any clips thats basic stuff , beer time all the best kop

 

[thompa25]

cheers for the advice lads, ill have to get someone in for it, wish i could have a pint, at work

 

[deg]

Anyone figure out what the yellow pump is for? Bronze pump for sec return maybe? Hard to tell from pics

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Anyone figure out what the yellow pump is for? Bronze pump for sec return maybe? Hard to tell from pics

yes its a stratification pump

 

[thompa25]

That stratification pump, as you call it, this must be used to circulate the hot water around the DHW system. If this pump isnt running I only get cold water out the taps, as soon as its running the hot water is fine. I was going to install a flow switch to operate the pump, so when a tap is run the pump kicks in. As appose the way it works now, the pump only runs when the hot water system is calling for heat (Hot water on). Is a flow switch a standard setup for this?

 

[king of pipes]

just wire it into a timer to run it when your need for hot water is at its most demand few hours am and pm

 

[thompa25]

I know what your saying, but then surely if I want a shower or something outside these hours, then I will have to switch on the pump, almost in the same situation as I am now. My girlfriend has spoken to her friend whos partner is a heating engineer. She tried to pass on what he said, as i haven't spoken to him directly. So what she has passed on is, for the current setup we would need to install a 2 port zone valve between the mid position and the cylinder, install a tundish to the drain on the PSV on the cylinder, then he said about putting in a PSV on the heating side. He also said we could rip it out and install an S plan system, but would be more expensive. He didnt mention any prices, but I really hope it isnt going to cost too much.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I would do an S plan over a y+

 

[thompa25]

Ill get in contact with the bloke and get him round, hopefully it wont be a ball ache to change it out, how many hours labour do you think to convert that to an S plan?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Ill get in contact with the bloke and get him round, hopefully it wont be a ball ache to change it out, how many hours labour do you think to convert that to an S plan?

Tbh about an hour more plus rewire

 

[thompa25]

I'll be doing all the wiring so just the plumbing side, thanks for your help

 

[thompa25]

Just one more question while trying to get my head around the system. So i have my main water inlet through the combination valve, and teed off to the expansion tank, then into the inlet of the cylinder. What is feeding the secondary pump? and why don't I get hot water unless this is running.