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Discuss Ballcock now driving me nuts in the Plumbing Forum area at UKPlumbersForums.co.uk.

  1. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    So i fitted new combi cylinder last year
    and replaced ballcock in tiny cold water storage tank at same time.
    Bank holiday weekend went over and changed both ballcocks both tanks share 1 overflow.
    Both shut off happy days.
    Phone call day to say water is ****ing out of overflow...
    Been over tested both ballCocks all seem fine bent them a tiny bit more just to make sure they shut off hard.
    Just had another call to say dripping again outside.
    Also noticed today top tank in combi was warm water to touch... think this is just conduction or thermostat failed?
    Any ideas?
     
  2. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    combi boiler on a non pressurised heating system ?

    or do you mean a cylinder
     
  3. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Combi Cylinder economy 7
    Cold water tank in top cylinder in bottom part
     
  4. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    right its a fortec cylinder

    any outlets that have hot on mains ?

    eg mixer taps showers etc
     
  5. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Hot on mains? Hot and mains would only be kitchen sink... everything else runs off c/w tank and cylinder boosted my shower pump
     
  6. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    boosted both hot and cold if so put some check valves on the kitchen sink
     
  7. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    You think mains is back filling cylinder from kitchen tap?
    Hadn't thought about that...
    More likely with showers tho no?
    Failed stat not more likely and backfilling that way?
    I need to go back and check...
     
  8. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    yea

    if there pumped equal pressures so not likely

    not after a year but worth checking but top tank would be warm
     
  9. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Thank you very much definitely food for thought I will investigate both. I have had a few dodgy backer elements around the same time I fitted cylinder so need to triple check it's not backers I fitted
     
  10. Chuck

    Chuck Active Member

    Assuming you mean a 'Fortic' type combined cylinder...

    If the hot tank starts filled with cold water at, say 10°C and heats up to 60°C the water will expand by about 1% by volume. This amount of water will be driven up into the header tank and there needs to be space to accommodate it without the overflow running.

    If there is not enough expansion space the process will continue until the cylinder is full of hot water, a couple of litres will overflow in the process, and the header tank may have got somewhat warmer than normal as well.

    For a combination tank, normal expansion [0.02%/°C for the bulk expansion coefficient] is only going to raise the level in the cold tank by 15 mm or so. If the thermostat has failed (and there is no other cutout) the expansion will be proportionately more up to the point the temperature in the cylinder reaches boiling at which point a lot of steam will start being transferred up the vent and then out of overflow, with the rate limited by the heater power.

    So, if your top level is at least 15 mm + plus a bit for luck below the overflow and the ball-valve seems to be working well I'd suspect the thermostat.

    If it reached the point the cylinder was boiling I think it could be pretty noisy, dramatic and dangerous. I've never witnessed it myself. I have seen the aftermath of such an incident (in the 1970s) when a boiler hadn't cut out, the overflow hadn't coped, and there was a *lot* of damage to the house. There would have been a lot more power than an electric immersion heater but I've erred on the side of caution with thermostats ever since.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
  11. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Yes fortic cylinder type...
    Thank you I will investigate in the morning as I am paranoid about cylinders causing damage.
     
  12. Gasinspect

    Gasinspect New Member

    I was always taught that Fortic needed copper float, not plastic. But kitchen tap if it is not divided flow in the spout could cause problem of backfilling. doubt it is a failed stat, you would soon know if that was the case!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    So no problem with fortic tank. Ball valve in there is fine.
    My problem now is with ball valve is tiny cold water storage tank.
    I have put 3 fudging ballcocks in it now and when left to its own devices it over flows. There is only 6 inches of water in it when I have fitted I wait for it to fill and stop which it does perfectly. However after 24hrs the overflow is dripping again...
    I know what I'm doing with ballcocks I have probably fitted 300+ but what is going on with this one?
    Can it be that I have fitted 3 faulty ones.
    1st one from my local regularly use and 2 from different suppliers but nothing solving so far. What else could it be?
     
  14. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Are you sure it's the ball cock and not rising through the feed or vent
     
  15. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Customer can hear constant dripping in cupboard and it is supplying cold water to toilet basin and shower. no vent pipes going into it... it has fortic cylinder next to it.
    I don't think it can be back filling from anywhere as all seems equal pressure.
    I have noticed mains pressure is only around 1.5 bar is this high enough pressure for high pressure seat?
    Could it be that part 2 ball valve is just too long and can't be adjusted enough to turn itself off and I need to fit a part 1?
     
  16. Chuck

    Chuck Active Member

    Is the static water pressure very high or very low? Is it within spec for the ball valve?

    What make of BV are you fitting? Are you sure it's a genuine one and not some fake that's come out of a Christmas cracker?
     
  17. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    2 peglers fitted
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
  18. Gasinspect

    Gasinspect New Member

    Send a photo of the setup, and diagram of what it is supplying.
     
  19. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Pretty sure
     
  20. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Not piccys.Not going back now until 20th may customer off on holiday... alright for some eh.
    But pretty basic 2 bed flat. In airing cupboard combined cylinder (fortic) hot water only. Hot feed to shower and basin in next room then kitchen behind that room.
    Small water tank located above cylinder cold water supplying basin and shower.
    All feeds from both of these go through Stuart Turner shower pump to get to outlets.
    Mains feeding tank and cylinder and cold kitchen tap.
     
  21. zzzjim

    zzzjim Well-Known Member

    Is water nice and clean , ( put some temporary flexis with ISOs to confirm
    blame on peglers miss-behaving ?)
    Is there much vibration in the area ?
    ..or am I off my trolley..
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. Gasinspect

    Gasinspect New Member

    you say "mains feeding tank AND cylinder" - ??? I hope you mistyped that, if not, then that will mean problems.
    Otherwise, check that there are non-return valves on supply to shower mixer.
     
  23. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Fortic cylinder so yes mains feeding top half of cylinder which feeds hot water part.
    Not typo
     
  24. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Water nice and clean no vibration present. Was worried it was spinning on tank but definitely not.
    Was burst main down Street but been repaired now.
    Could be down to this? Highly doubt it going back on 20th... think I might try part 1 just to see if it is length of arm in tiny tank that is causing me ****.
    I seem to remember there being a part 1 fitted when I first replaced 18 months ago thinking it was odd because tank is fairly new.
     
  25. zzzjim

    zzzjim Well-Known Member

    Was thinking mystery crud , causing valve to pass . Disturbed by vibration .
    (inspect rubbery bits ! )
     
  26. Chuck

    Chuck Active Member

    There should be a lid on the top of the cold tank. Could it be sagging and stopping the float rise fully?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Lid off lost behind cylinder shhhh! No-one knows!
    Have checked all rubbery bits but to no avail.
    I think maybe the pin was too stiff for shutting off naturally as I can shut of with my hand. By lifting arm literally half a mm from where it was dripping.
    Maximum adjustment bending and float placement leaves 6inches in bottom of tank and still dripping...
    Still thinking part 1 is only way as tank is so tiny and arm is shorter on part 1
     
  28. zzzjim

    zzzjim Well-Known Member

    Part 1 may seem a backward step , but if overflow makes it safe from syphoning ,
    may be way to go . Seen excessive pressure damage new style stuff in a jiffy .
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. Chuck

    Chuck Active Member

    Have you got the right type of float on the valve? If adding a small amount of uplift with a finger shut the valve it suggests that you need a larger ball. Anyway, Pegler has an office in Yorkshire and advertise a technical help service. If you've bought three of their ball valves and they aren't working as you expect try calling them and see if they can put you straight:

    Technical Help
    Free Phone 0800 156 0050
    Free Fax 0808 156 1012
    [email protected]

    Disclaimer: I've never tried calling them myself, I've never had any problems with their products.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  30. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Right guys... both ball Cockshutt now dripping within 1sec of each other but 30 secs between drips... ball valves stay closed when held up or tied up but do not completely seal. Am I right that the only logical solution is that there is a leak on the mains supply to both these ballcocks and they are displacing the air in the pipesame by dripping... mains stopcock had a tiny weep from gland nut around spindle...
     
  31. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

  32. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    am i missing something, why is the heating f and e overflow discharging into the hot water tank?
     
  33. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Tiny cold water storage cistern overflow discharging into fortic cylinder
     
  34. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    yes whats that tiny one supplying?
     
  35. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Cold water feed for pumped thermostatic shower
     
  36. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    shower pump at the side of the cylinder?
     
  37. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Underneath cylinder is up on legs about 1m. Shower pump in back right corner of cupboard.
    No access to shower pipework at all. Can just see in tailing of from cupboard.
    Tiled floor to ceiling including boxwork under shower tray.
    But I do have the job of regrouting and siliconing shower area
     
  38. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    going a bit oftopic but do you know the size of the plastic tank roughly ?
     
  39. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    No idea mate I would hazard a guess 3ft x 2ft x 1 1/2 tall
     
  40. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    ok ta

    dont have a clue with the ball valves does it happen every time its shut off / not used or does it only happen at certain times
     
  41. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    It happens in the evening... never when I have been there that day but the following day I get a phone call to say she can hear a dripping noise from the cupboard again but they are dripping in unison now. Going to check on stopcock and incoming supply. She is getting a bit fudged off atm understandably...
    It doesn't shut off on its own but it does with a hand or if you top up tank by pressing down on float until it reaches the level. So irritating
     
  42. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    would say its the incoming pressure if it only happens in the night

    do you know the incoming pressure ?
     
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  43. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    Not amazing I can stop it with my hand in the daytime when I'm over there... probably 12 liters a minute
     
  44. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    shouldnt be that then, i would ring the manufactures up and see what they have to say

    normally fit and forget unless its a stupid incoming water pressure
     
    • Like Like x 1
  45. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    I know what u mean will try pegler see what answershe they can supply.
    Have tried changing seats in valves too with thicker washers no fing difference
     
  46. Gasinspect

    Gasinspect New Member

    try a pressure reducing valve. have known pressure increase to nearly 6bar at certain times of day. had to change a valve a couple of months ago , rang the manufacturers and they said their valve was designed for 3 bar. just he laws of physics, does not imply fault with float valve. in the past used to fit equilibrium float valves, they were quite successful but more expensive.
     
  47. DripsnDropsBognor

    DripsnDropsBognor New Member

    After all that if was the fecking wind...
    South facing overflow pipe as close to the beach as you can possibly get 2 stories up.
    Lid on for fortic cylinder. Gale blowing up overflow pipe and creating a tank slapper inside.
    What a palaver! Sorted now bend them pins on both ballcocks so there is no play from the arms to the pins.
    Told customer if you can hear the wind whistling up here you might get a dripping or 2 nothing I can do about that you need the overflow just in case
     
  48. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Put a 90 with a short bit of pipe if it's just straight pipe outside

    Should solve it
     
    • Like Like x 2
  49. Best

    Best Trusted Plumber

    The overflow inside the tank, turned down into the water also will stop the wind blowing in. Same as on new bye law kits.
     
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  50. zzzjim

    zzzjim Well-Known Member

    Cheers DnD , I'd completely forgotten those costal breezes !
    ..Feels a bit more windy by time we get to Evesham .
     
    • Like Like x 1