Charge for plumber

[Sonicboom]

Hi there

My shower is leaking, coming into the kitchen, and I have a trading standards approved plumber from the buy with confidence website coming out on Tuesday. He is charging £100 inc vat for call out inc first hour and then £60 an hour inc vat after that. I have looked online but can’t determine if this is a good price. I have no idea how long this job will take. Online I see that some people charge fixed amounts for jobs, even leaks. I wanted to go with this guy because he is trading standards approved so hopefully he is not a cowboy. Is the charging amounts about right? I have no idea.

Please help, thanks

 

[gmartine]

Get more than one quote.

 

[Aquarius]

Location prices can vary as well, eg London

 

[Sonicboom]

Thanks guys, so this is southern England. So he is coming over on Tuesday. Should I text him and make it clear that I want him to come over initially for a quote rather than to come over and start work on something (he hasn’t seen the issue yet). I’m worried that he might turn up on Tuesday and try to charge me £100 outright because he has turned up, even if I tell him I want to get another quote. I have never needed to call a plumber out before (you can tell can’t you). Should I sign something before he starts doing any work? And confirm that Tuesday is for a quote only?

 

[Scott_D]

Sounds like you will be charged as you have been told the amount and make a booking.
A quote in my mind doesn’t involve getting tools out, hidden leaks can’t be seen without exposing the issues and so it would be hard to give a fixed price.

 

[SimonG]

Your lucky to get hold of somebody so soon.

You say shower is leaking into kitchen, could be any number of things and not easy to give an estimate for repair.

If you had booked me in for Tuesday and then text me to say it's just to look at it then I would be telling you to find somebody else.

This is a case of not knowing the actual problem so it's going to need some investigative time to bottom it out. So basically a diagnosis. Diagnosis is chargeable.

 

[WC1]

Imo
Don't believe what you see on the BBC, "rogue traders" are a very small minority.
You've taken reasonable steps to find a trustworthy contractor, perhaps show a little trust?
Unfortunately the BBC and others never do a show called "rogue customer" (I do not believe you are one) but people often try not to pay a contractor for work done and often (after the fact) you realise that the customer deliberately set out to cheat you.
Good luck

 

[Sonicboom]

Thanks for all your replies. You are right, I am very on my guard. The reassuring thing is nobody has come back and said that £60 an hour is steep, he may even bring someone with him, I don’t know. I’ll go ahead and see what happens, I could find myself a reliable plumber. Thanks for all your help.

 

[Scott_D]

Does the shower leak constantly or only when it’s used?

 

[Sonicboom]

Does the shower leak constantly or only when it’s

The leak is coming through the side of the kitchen ceiling. I wasn’t sure if it was coming from the bathroom or the outside wall because the outside wall has turned black. So I called a plumber and described the problem over the phone and he thought it was an external problem so I called out a property services guy who came out and measured out where the leak was coming from and went into the bathroom and came to the conclusion, although he didn’t look under the tray, that the leak is coming from under the tray and it is not the silicone in the shower or anything else that is causing the leak. I had put a bowl under the leak and when I use the shower, I don’t get water in the bowl straight away. It has also been raining but again I don’t get water in the bowl straight away and the property services guy is convinced there is a leak from under the shower tray, that is internal and nothing to do with the kitchen wall. So he gave me contact details for a plumber he uses but when I called them, they didn’t get back to me. So I went on the buy with confidence website, found this guy and gave him a call and he is coming out on Tuesday.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

So it’s rented ?

 

[Aquarius]

So it’s rented ?

What’s makes you ask this?

 

[Gasmk1]

What’s makes you ask this?

Because op said he called out property services guy.

 

[Sonicboom]

What’s makes you ask this?

No it’s not rented

 

[Knappers]

To investigate and find the problem is a job not a quote, you should expect to pay the callout charge.
Personally If the callout is quick and results in a larger job then I may make a slight adjustment on final bill (sometimes I get plenty of tea and a couple of biscuits during job ).
I would respect the engineers advice and try not to be suspicious, as mentioned before 'rogue customers' are MUCH more common than rogue traders and your more likely to talk yourself into paying more if you come across as difficult and seen to be a higher risk.

 

[Aquarius]

Because op said he called out property services guy.

Thanks, was thinking the OP meant a person who deals with property repairs, eg builder/handy person type.

 

[Murdoch]

Sounds like it’s booked via a website and not directly with the plumber so the op will be picking up the costs to the intermediate leaches to

 

[Chuck]

Sounds like it’s booked via a website and not directly with the plumber so the op will be picking up the costs to the intermediate leaches to

In general you're right but in this case, the 'Buy with Confidence' website is a not for profit thing and charges a fairly small annual subscription not a 'per job' tax.

 

[king of pipes]

I would expect he will attend the appointment you booked, do whatever minor works is needed and diagnose the problem this will be the £100 charge ? Kop

 

[Sonicboom]

Thanks for all the replies so far, it is really helpful to me. I will let you know what happens on Tuesday as well as it will be interesting to get your thoughts

 

[Sonicboom]

So I thought I’d give an update. The company came out yesterday - two guys. They are on the buy with confidence website and also on checkatrade. The guys turned up on time, friendly but no chit chat, got straight on with trying to identify the leak. They identified the problem within 5 minutes of being here that the leak was coming through the silicone in one corner and then through the tray. This was a bit frustrating because previous to this, a property services guy came out to assess who said that it wasn’t the silicone and that the leak was coming from under the shower tray (although he didn’t take the shower tray off). I feel like if I’d have had correct diagnostics, I could have got someone to replace the silicone for less than £100 or even do it myself?! The property services guy was also from buy with confidence. I guess maybe he was having an off day? He was here with me for a while helping determine where he thought the leak was coming from and he didn’t charge for his help (as he thought it was a plumbing job , that was something he didn’t do). Anyway, back to the plumbers, they also sorted out my waste pipe and kitchen sink issue in less than a minute. The u bend was full of gunk so I’d cleaned it out but couldn’t get the washer and the waste pipe to sit without leaking. Based on their work yesterday, I’d have no hesitation recommending them. I thought the job was going to be a lot more involved but that goes to show that they were honest about what was actually involved. They looked so young though! Maybe I’m just getting old but one guy looked like he could still be at school! Still, I would definitely use them again if I had plumbing issues so win win

 

[WC1]

Sounds good, ask them if they would like you to leave them a review and let the neighbours know you've found a good local plumber.

 

[Chuck]

They looked so young though! Maybe I’m just getting old but one guy looked like he could still be at school! Still, I would definitely use them again if I had plumbing issues so win win

Could have been an apprentice. If you've found a good plumber and had two problems fixed for £100 you've got a bargain.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep good for reference the silicon around the tray should be done every 2-3 years depending on the type and quality of the silicon

 

[Knappers]

Sounds good.
A very common installation fault on showers is when they're sealed after screen has been installed, this leaves a gap in seal behind screen profile.
Not that yours is like this but I usually quote a days work to remove screen, all silicone and usually scrape first couple of rows of grout before re-grouting, re-sealing and refitting screen (over a couple of days or longer if damp).
I've tried other less drastic measures but with varied success so now I go straight for this.

 

[Sonicboom]

Do unfortunately I’m still getting a leak into the kitchen. I’ve sent a text to the plumbers and told them Im going to stop using the shower and use the bath instead and check the bowl under the leak in the kitchen day to make sure it is the shower that is the problem. I guess I need to get them back to look further but they couldn’t see any issues under the shower tray. I just wonder what they will look at next? I haven’t had my invoice through yet and don’t know whether it will be £100 (call out inc one hour) or £160 (call out with two hours) as they were here literally just over an hour but should I be paying for that if the problem isn’t fixed?

 

[Ric2013]

Do unfortunately I’m still getting a leak into the kitchen. I’ve sent a text to the plumbers and told them Im going to stop using the shower and use the bath instead and check the bowl under the leak in the kitchen day to make sure it is the shower that is the problem. I guess I need to get them back to look further but they couldn’t see any issues under the shower tray. I just wonder what they will look at next? I haven’t had my invoice through yet and don’t know whether it will be £100 (call out inc one hour) or £160 (call out with two hours) as they were here literally just over an hour but should I be paying for that if the problem isn’t fixed?

On the one hand, time spend investigating, even that spent not quite getting it right, is fair to charge for.

On the other hand, if the agreement was to identify and remedy leak and that's why the invoice is being written, then the work hasn't been done. I'd expect them to hold fire on the invoice and to come back and continue the work without it involving a second callout charge, although if the work done thus far was needed, it's fair to charge for it.

There may be other ways of looking at this.

Good shout on not using the shower to check that is definitely the source. Elimination is often the best way of identifying faults, and I've had cases before where customers simply won't accept that it may be a good idea to avoid using a shower for a few days (even when the customer had other options in the house) and just expect me to be able to work magic.

 

[Sonicboom]

On the one hand, time spend investigating, even that spent not quite getting it right, is fair to charge for.

On the other hand, if the agreement was to identify and remedy leak and that's why the invoice is being written, then the work hasn't been done. I'd expect them to hold fire on the invoice and to come back and continue the work without it involving a second callout charge, although if the work done thus far was needed, it's fair to charge for it.

There may be other ways of looking at this.

Good shout on not using the shower to check that is definitely the source. Elimination is often the best way of identifying faults, and I've had cases before where customers simply won't accept that it may be a good idea to avoid using a shower for a few days (even when the customer had other options in the house) and just expect me to be able to work magic.

Haha yeah I really hate not having a shower but to be honest there are far worse things in this world right?!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Did the re do the silicon in the shower ?

 

[king of pipes]

Pictures help us give a more accurate advice ?? Kop

 

[Chuck]

It's possible that there's a pond of water under the shower left from when there is a leak. On the other hand, if the leak starts and stops in a manner that correlates with usage you've still got a leak.

If it's possible to get the shower to spray down the drain without wetting anything above the tray, you might be able to deduce whether the problem is with the seal around the tray or something to do with the waste. It's possible for both tray seal and waste are leaking at the same time!

These stories often end with the tray being taken out and reinstalled on a better support because the original allowed too much movement.

 

[Sonicboom]

I have attached some photos of the shower and the kitchen

 

[Sonicboom]

The photo of the outside is included because I wondered if it was a damp issue rather than a plumbing issue but both the property services guy who visited and the plumber think it is coming from the bathroom (shower). The toilet is dry at the back so toilet has been ruled out.

 

[Sonicboom]

@ShaunCorbs yes they redid all the silicone around the tray (pictures above)

@king of pipes put a few pics up to help illustrate

 

[Sonicboom]

@Chuck that is very interesting and good information, thanks

this probably doesn’t help as I’m sure it’s standard but these are photos of the shower drain. What would be great is if I could get the shower tray off and photograph that. I will have a look. I have to clear the drain but from debris about once a month. I know this probably means nothing but just trying to give as much info so please don’t laugh at me! (much!)

 

[gmartine]

It was the plumber that done it with the lady razor in bathroom.


Errr...sorry been playing Cluedo.

 

[Sonicboom]

I have managed to take the tray off but not a lot to report...I guess I could run the water and see what happens?

 

[Sonicboom]

I’ve just run the shower full pelt all over the tray and nothing is coming through.

 

[Chuck]

I’ve just run the shower full pelt all over the tray and nothing is coming through.

If the photos in the previous post are representative I think the search needs widening as what you've shown under the shower doesn't look wet.

Is it a pressurised heating system? Are you having to top up the boiler frequently?

Can you get a camera and some light in to the space where the pair of copper (heating?) pipes is?

What you want at this stage is someone with an endoscope that can be poked into the voids to see what's going on.

 

[king of pipes]

@ShaunCorbs yes they redid all the silicone around the tray (pictures above)

@king of pipes put a few pics up to help illustrate

I suspect here is your issue is the directly above the hole in the cieling below ??

 

[Sonicboom]

@Chuck I am not 100% sure what a pressurised system is but I have a combi boiler and I don’t think they are the same thing.

@king of pipes. Ok the photo you showed me with the red ring round the hole, after taking the shower tray side off, there is a gap in the floor by the wall. I poured some water into the gap and sure enough it pours through the hole in my kitchen ceiling. Result! But I am really confused. You can see on my second photo there are drip marks down the wall out of the hole in the kitchen ceiling. But my kitchen never has drip marks on it. Also the area around the gap by the shower was dry when I took the shower tray side off, even though I had a shower this morning. Any ideas how I can chase this further? The area is wet now because I poured water down the gap but I suppose I could let it dry completely for a few days and then have a shower and then check the area straight away afterwards? Or any ideas of things I can say to the plumbers to help them in the right direction?

 

[Sonicboom]

@king of pipes also something else that occurred to me. The photo you put a red circle around, that hole is actually outside the shower so whilst if you poured water through that hole, it would then go through the gap and through the hole in the kitchen ceiling, how on earth can water be dripping from outside the shower? But it makes sense because that area is green so water damage. Could it be the screen is leaky but they have just redone the silicone and I left it 48 hours before using the shower.

 

[Chuck]

I poured some water into the gap and sure enough it pours through the hole in my kitchen ceiling. Result! But I am really confused.

What you've learned is that if you pour water through the floorboards some will soak into the plasterboard and the rest will move to the lowest point, i.e. the hole in the kitchen ceiling.

Unfortunately, you've now made diagnosing the problem much harder because its not going to be easy to distinguish between the effects of the water from the real leak and the water you've poured into the ceiling.

 

[SimonG]

Somebody has sealed the frame internally. Waters getting into the frame and getting out through where KOP circled.

 

[Knappers]

Please see my last post.
It's difficult to be sure but it looks likely that tray is not sealed behind screen profile.
Screen is also sealed internally which it usually shouldn't be.
The scale/scum rising up joints on screen and glass on outside edges is another sign that water is building up inside shower profile.

With screen end profile sealed inside and out and not behind means that water will collect in the profile and leak through.

If you spray the corner while observing underneath then you'll likely see it pour through.

I see lots of attempts to better seal the screen loins but it often makes it worse and the only correction involves removing screen

 

[Knappers]

If the plumber added silicone to insides of screen then I would find some instructions for that (or similar) screen and point out where it says not to.
See what they do but I think a discount on proper repair that covers the callout would be fair.

I don't like to cause issues for other plumbers but this Is a lesson they need to learn

If all they did was replace what was already there then I think its fair to pay full bill

 

[Sonicboom]

What you've learned is that if you pour water through the floorboards some will soak into the plasterboard and the rest will move to the lowest point, i.e. the hole in the kitchen ceiling.

Unfortunately, you've now made diagnosing the problem much harder because its not going to be easy to distinguish between the effects of the water from the real leak and the water you've poured into the ceiling.

Oh dear, maybe I should contact the plumbers and tell them what I’ve done and leave well alone for a few weeks or even a month or so or does it not work like that? I think I’ve probably done everything I can do now with everyone’s help?

 

[king of pipes]

Is water penetrating though the wall trim in the corner this should be siliconed and screwed to the tiles? then sealed where the shower screen meets the trim and in the corner, then on the outside of the trim only theres always a risk of leakage there if not sealed correctly at the time of installation.
A little tip get yourself a water spray bottle fill with water and little food colouring just enough to colour the water, spray against the left hand trim inside and observe externally for any water leakage if you find it ? you then have grounds for a reduction in the plumbers bill or a future repair, a through cleaning of the shower area wouldn't hurt either can you get your hands on a domestic steam cleaner ? These work well on dirt and grime a little white vinegar added also helps ? Regards Kop

 

[Chuck]

Oh dear, maybe I should contact the plumbers and tell them what I’ve done and leave well alone for a few weeks or even a month or so or does it not work like that? I think I’ve probably done everything I can do now with everyone’s help?

No, don't leave it for a 'few weeks or even a month'. Eventually the damp due to the leak will start causing rot and it is not going to get better on its own.

 

[Stanios]

The best thing you can do OP is find a good plumber and make friends with them. Local is extremely importand and You either want a one man band or a very small firm. Someone like Dynorod can be sending different guy every day. Different guy = different result. The guys you had, no disrespect to them, but after getting them out you shouldn't be pulling off shower tray plinth and doing tests yourself. You are paying lots for plumber's time in order not to have to worry about any of it. If they couldn't deliver that I would settle their charge (sounds like £160 ) and try someone else next time. Young is not necessaraily an indicator of inexperience but your guy needs to have had at least 3-4 years on the tools and if they look 16 that just won't be possible. I would get on checkatrade and find reviews that mention one or two names only, reviews for exact type of issue that you have. They might be busy for a week they will almost certainly charge for investigating but why not book them provisionally with agreeement if you sort it to ring them a day or two before to cancel. When you do find someone who brings results pay them on time, don't dispute their rates, don't take the mick by asking them to look at your lightbulb or whatever expecting them to do free work or call expecting a free troubleshoot over the phone. Good guys are busy and value their time. nothing more off putting than a customer who asks for alot of "favours" and never offers a penny.