Competent persons and legalities.

[Stree]

Hello, browsed before and get good information and tips, and after this last weeks adeventures I thought it as good a time as any to join and ask a question ( or two) that hopefully can be clearly answered by the professionals on the forum.

Firstly a little background, not in the wet trades myself, mostly a chippy but bit of electricals, tiling etc and enough plumbing so that installation of kitchens, bathrooms etc. are never a problem.

Anyway, my elderly next door neighbour rang me last week and asked if I would look at her boiler, hardly anything on the rads and no hot water.
This boiler , a Halstead Eden CBX32 was installed July 2009. I saw that it had zero pressure and the reset LED was lit red,so I topped up to 1.5 bar and reset. Boiler fired for 30 seconds then turned off and the pressure slowly worked back to zero. Maybe air introduced I thought so a quick check for air in rads. No air. Anyway topped up about 5 times and each time back to zero, so gave in and called Halsteads to ask for advice.....Well those days are certainly gone, all they would tell me is to use a damp cloth to wipe the case..........So had to ask for local Halstead approved engineer.
I am fairly new to the area so do not yet have a CH engineer that I could swear by, so was hesitant to just find a yellow pages one.
Anyway, Halstead approved engineer visited, declared pressure vessel had died and PRV valve was leaking....Just happened to have these on the van, but not the washer to seal the PRV.
Whether this was an olive or O ring or Fibre washer I do not know but it cost another call out charge to come and fit it next day Seemed unfair.
Anyway, return visit, leak sealed, fired up and system no different No DHW and lukewarm/ cold rads. Engineer called gaffer who joined in and replaced another pressure valve? the pump head and the diverter motor.
Still no different. However, gaffer said to save money my mate and I could fit an auto bypass and run a cleaner through the system and he reckoned that would clear it because there "must be a blockage."
OK willing to believe that at the time, so drained the system to fit bypass, and noted the water was colour of very weak tea. hardly the black sludge we were expecting. Anyway put some OLD system cleaner through it over night, checked pressure, fired up and still burning just 30 seconds and off.Not locking out, just burner switching off. Tried DHW, the boiler almost jumped of the wall, violent banging, howling and pressure wentto zero then shot full way round off the scale! Shut it down Pressure at zero
Refilled, bled boiler through top vent, fired up and same again.
Boiler would run all day in it 30 sec every 4 mins mode but thats all.
Locked out all rads and opened each in turn. Equal lukewarm heat to each, proving flow.
Rang Gaffer engineer who promised he would come out and fit a hydrblock at total cost of one hours labour.
Got a call from his office this morning saying he meant he would do this after we had fitted the bypass valve AND done a double cleaning cycle.......Cleaner circulating for 4 weeks, then flush, then repeat
and after eight weeks we could let him know if there was still an issue. Meanwhile a lady by herself semi invalid in her mid eighties has just a 2 bar electric fire and a kettle for heating and hot water and we know what the temperatures have been like.
Now this engineer strongly advised me not attempt anything that involved getting to the innards of the boiler although happy for us to fit bypass, flush system etc, even though I stressed that I would only be looking at the water side, no gas.
Anyway, after his bill for £690:00 dropped on the customers mat and his advice re: double cleaning cycle we duly took the front off, lifted out the secondary heat exchanger, got rid of the accumulated sediment and scale that clogged the filter with a solid mass, and I mean solid, poke with screwdriver to loosen type solid. Not even 8 weeks would have shifted that.
Anyway, we cleaned it, replaced it, oh and unclipped the pipe from the primary heat exchanger because that was clogged solid too up to halfway so not as far as the main heat exchanger. Thats a fiddly clip at the top with the O ring !
filled, bled, fired up and have a beautifully behaved quick to heat and very quiet boiler, rads as hot as you wish and very quick DHW piping hot, and NO leaks.

Now, with the 2 GS reg engineers that installed the system, the 3 that followed shortly after that who between them replaced the mains in turbine, pcb and a heat sensor, in a vain attempt to get it to work, and this latest Halstead approved engineer and gaffer I have mentioned, we have a total of SEVEN Gas Safe engineers, none of whom was able to leave this system running. But all charged for time and parts, Now I doubt that some of these parts were needed and just stabs in the dark because they were unable to logically work out what the real issue was.
The lady customer has asked if she could get some recompense, I wish she could, but it has been suggested to me that if any engineer I have a complaint against finds out I have been in the boiler even just on the water side, then the boiler will be condemned and we will be liable to prosecution. Is this so?

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Tara,
I got all the paperwork together from her, spoke with trading standards, was compiling a presentation for them when the lady called me and said she did not want the fuss....... Her prerogative..... so it was all paid and that was that. Thank you anyway

O it is more stressful /difficult trying to get the money back. i can understand why she doesn't want to.
Shame though, as it seems unscrupulous can make easy money this way and I don't know how they sleep at night knowing they charged all that money, it still didn't work and the were happy to leave her in the cold.

When we hear about millionaire plumbers perhaps that's where we are going wrong!!!

 

[Toxic Ted]

O it is more stressful /difficult trying to get the money back. i can understand why she doesn't want to.
Shame though, as it seems unscrupulous can make easy money this way and I don't know how they sleep at night knowing they charged all that money, it still didn't work and the were happy to leave her in the cold.

When we hear about millionaire plumbers perhaps that's where we are going wrong!!!

Millionaire heating engineers ripping off vulnerable people...........i like to sleep at night and dont understand how they have the brass neck to look the custard in the eye while holding their hand out............i hope karma really exists cos the scum will pay dearly in the end!!!

 

[lambchop]

Stree, I feel for you mate you were trying to do the right thing by helping an elderly & vunerable person. Yes obviously the problem didnt get sorted by the GSR(s) that attended and I share your frustratuion.

You tackled the problem and it turned out in this instance to be ok (thank god) You are a professional tradesman and obviously take pride in your work and have some integrity BUT just because you have read the manual and solved a problem does not mean you are competent! even if the trades people that legally are in your arent worth s*** Also saying that you cant trust all GSR's!!? a few bad apples... still makes cider (have I got that wrong?)

Hindsight is a wonderful thing

 

[lambchop]

i meant, in your opinion

 

[peteheat]

Under Irish law you are subject to the following for working on a gas boiler without being deemed competent (basically an RGI):

On conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €15,000 or a term of imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or both.

I am not going to argue about the law because if anything I believe it is too soft, even a bad electrical job is very unlikely to
kill your neighbours, not many jobs entail introducing a potential explosive to peoples homes therefore should be treated with both
knowledge and the respect that comes from that knowledge.

There is something very wrong about this story, a boiler fitted a few months :

Why not call the person / company who installed the boiler?

Appears the manufacturers instructions were not adhered to and the system was not correctly flushed prior to the new boiler
being installed.

The seven (?) RGI's who attended the boiler should not be paid, in fact I believe they should be made re-sit the exams to prove
they are competent to offer gas boiler repairs.

None of us "know it all" therefore we must recognise our limitations and refuse to take on certain jobs and certainly should not
charge anything if our repairs are not successful, or until they are.

This may involve seeking a second opinion or RGII and Gas Safe having a phone a friend system in place because there should
be no need for a consumer to have line of vans qued up to see which one "may" find the fault.

I don't / can't condone your actions that said I can't condone the actions of those who should have known better by walking
away with the customers money having delivered no value for it regardless of the consumers age.

 

[Stree]

Pete, and so you too would let her freeze.
The original installers installed in summer, the hot water worked because the system had not yet clogged up, no need for the lady to use the central heating. From first use it gradually got worse and worse to the point where no heat in rads. Called back installers. They charged her to renew all copper piping to cure it. No joy. They then charged her to powerflush it 3 times at 350 per. No joy. They then charged her to replace two rads.
( all the rads fitted by them were seriously undersized for the room and user needs, and I changed 3 x 800 singles for 1100 double convectors, at rad cost only when I looked at the system for her.)
So of course by now she gave up on the installers, and being of an age and an era, did not like to complain, and believed them when they insisted they had done everything right and it must be " Just one of those things"
Still freezing. A fresh engineer from yellow pages. Inspection... bleeds rads. spends a while inspecting boiler. Declares expansion vessel kaput and fits another. Charged of course. No difference.
Another engineer found and attended. This one suspects flue fan (?) says they are plastic and only the old metal types work really, so gets one and replaces fan unit. adjusts burner rate and checks out other bits.
Charged, paid , left. No difference.

Need I go on? This was repeated in one form or another for engineers...................I could not believe it. I was furious..............and yes, I know all about how criminal it is and how dangerous it might be for untrained people to work on boilers. That is why I called the manufacturer to get their approved engineers....One called twice, 3 hours and 6 hours, replaced numerous parts and seals, asked me to keep an eye on a dripping leak left on the boiler Friday night until another engineer more experienced could call on Monday. A top specification bucket was my permitted access to heating technology.
Fresh manufacturers engineer Monday........Host of major components replaced leading to £1100 bill. No difference.
When queried says it is not his fault, system is clogged, so use such and such that he recommends, ( Tells me I am OK to carry out this procedure by the way, he has had enough of this boiler) to clean out the system.
Problem is, he says to leave it in the system for 6 weeks................Then repeat treatment..If it is no better then call him. This is midwinter, a house with a single elderly infirm occupant.
and you would have me join in and quote the law at her and leave her to her fate?
It must be the way people are brought up that gives them such a fear of authority that it denies them common humanity and decency.

 

[Stree]

Lambchop,

Thank you, I appreciate you reading and understanding.

 

[peteheat]

Pete, and so you too would let her freeze.
The original installers installed in summer, the hot water worked because the system had not yet clogged up, no need for the lady to use the central heating. From first use it gradually got worse and worse to the point where no heat in rads. Called back installers. They charged her to renew all copper piping to cure it. No joy. They then charged her to powerflush it 3 times at 350 per. No joy. They then charged her to replace two rads.
( all the rads fitted by them were seriously undersized for the room and user needs, and I changed 3 x 800 singles for 1100 double convectors, at rad cost only when I looked at the system for her.)
So of course by now she gave up on the installers, and being of an age and an era, did not like to complain, and believed them when they insisted they had done everything right and it must be " Just one of those things"
Still freezing. A fresh engineer from yellow pages. Inspection... bleeds rads. spends a while inspecting boiler. Declares expansion vessel kaput and fits another. Charged of course. No difference.
Another engineer found and attended. This one suspects flue fan (?) says they are plastic and only the old metal types work really, so gets one and replaces fan unit. adjusts burner rate and checks out other bits.
Charged, paid , left. No difference.

Need I go on? This was repeated in one form or another for engineers...................I could not believe it. I was furious..............and yes, I know all about how criminal it is and how dangerous it might be for untrained people to work on boilers. That is why I called the manufacturer to get their approved engineers....One called twice, 3 hours and 6 hours, replaced numerous parts and seals, asked me to keep an eye on a dripping leak left on the boiler Friday night until another engineer more experienced could call on Monday. A top specification bucket was my permitted access to heating technology.
Fresh manufacturers engineer Monday........Host of major components replaced leading to £1100 bill. No difference.
When queried says it is not his fault, system is clogged, so use such and such that he recommends, ( Tells me I am OK to carry out this procedure by the way, he has had enough of this boiler) to clean out the system.
Problem is, he says to leave it in the system for 6 weeks................Then repeat treatment..If it is no better then call him. This is midwinter, a house with a single elderly infirm occupant.
and you would have me join in and quote the law at her and leave her to her fate?
It must be the way people are brought up that gives them such a fear of authority that it denies them common humanity and decency.

If you read my post again nowhere have I stated the customer should freeze or even feel a chill.

The rules, regulations and laws were introduced to stop people who don't understand what they are doing from literally playing with fire.

In my opinion if you were being a good neighbour you would have contacted Gas Safe and told them what amounts to nothing less than a horror story, the original installers should have been brought back and made to stay until the problem was resolved if not by them by someone competent at their expence.

As soon as the customer's system was working as it should that installer should have had their Gas Safe status revoked and made to re-sit the exams as it is obvious through the actions you have described they proved themselves to be incompetent.

The same should happen to each of the Gas Safe engineers who attended and accepted money from the customer for a job that was clearly not completed to any standard in that the boiler did not work as it is supposed to.

Instead of providing some electric heaters or similar source of heating for your neighbour what you have done from your description is ensured that a number of persons with Gas Safe status are free to continue providing a questionable service to members of the public unless of course you are willing to take your chances that a Judge will agree that you were the only person who could fix that boiler.

I would have to read your original post again but from memory you have taken a boiler apart and may have left your neighbour with C0 escaping into her home because nowhere do you state that you have the knowledge or equipment to test the boiler is working safely.

My post regarding this topic / thread or another which I will copy and paste here for you will certainly not make me the most popular RGI posting on this site, as far as I'm concerned individual popularity is not what this site is about, it's certainly not about condoning breaking the law instead of using the many consumer laws there are in force to protect people like your neighbour.

I firmly believe that anyone who provides Goods and Services to consumers be it Gas, Oil, Solid Fuel or renewables such as Wood Pellet or Solar has a duty of care to ensure their customer receives a system fit for purpose, I believe that you will find similar wording in consumer law.

Posted earlier on another thread:

I believe the person responsible to ensure this boiler is working properly should be the original installer.

Passing responsibility in the manner described is in my view not acceptable, by all means call the manufacturers tech support in to rectify the problem but stay to make sure they get it right or provide a replacement boiler.

I believe the more Gas Safe / RGI's appear to be allowed to walk away from faulty appliances passing the responsibility to others will only cause further damage to the industry.

I also believe if the fault is found to in the boiler not the installation the manufacturer should be forced to compensate the RGI for all the time they must spend overseeing the manufacturers representatives or installing the replacement boiler.

Consequences appear to have flown out the window just as fast as part qualified RGI's were coming in the door, the manufacturers are equally responsible by introducing appliances that are supposed to be almost self installing where the gas side is concerned.

 

[bewsh]

If you work on a gas appliance, even if it is not part of the gas line in the appliance, you still have to do safety checks to make sure it's safe, and without being gas safe registered, you can not legally carry out these safety checks. So ye, you illegally worked on the boiler.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

If you work on a gas appliance, even if it is not part of the gas line in the appliance, you still have to do safety checks to make sure it's safe, and without being gas safe registered, you can not legally carry out these safety checks. So ye, you illegally worked on the boiler.

also not being gas safe how do you know what safety checks to do?

 

[Dotty]

This thread is now being done to death. The definitive answer from the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 part B Regulation 3 states -

Qualification and supervision3.—(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.
(2) The employer of any person carrying out such work for that employer, every other employer and self-employed person who has control to any extent of such work and every employer and self-employed person who has required such work to be carried out at any place of work under his control shall ensure that paragraph (1) above is complied with in relation to such work.
(3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above and subject to paragraph (4) below, no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph.
(4) The requirements of paragraph (3) above shall not apply in respect of—
(a)the replacement of a hose or regulator on a portable or mobile space heater; or
(b)the replacement of a hose connecting a re-fillable cylinder to installation pipework.
(5) An approval given pursuant to paragraph (3) above (and any withdrawal of such approval) shall be in writing and notice of it shall be given to such persons and in such manner as the Health and Safety Executive considers appropriate.
(6) The employer of any person carrying out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel in the course of his employment shall ensure that such of the following provisions of these Regulations as impose duties upon that person and are for the time being in force are complied with by that person.
(7) No person shall falsely pretend to be a member of a class of persons required to be approved under paragraph (3) above.
(8) Notwithstanding sub-paragraph (b) of regulation 2(4), when a person is carrying out work in premises referred to in that sub-paragraph in relation to a gas fitting in a vehicle, vessel or caravan—
(a)paragraphs (1), (2) and (6) of this regulation shall be complied with as respects thereto; and
(b)he shall ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that the installation of the gas fittings and flues will not contravene the provisions of these Regulations when the gas fittings are connected to a gas supply,
except that this paragraph shall not apply where the person has reasonable grounds for believing that the vehicle, vessel or caravan will be first used for a purpose which when so used will exclude it from the application of these Regulations by virtue of sub-paragraphs (a), (c) or (e) of regulation 2(5).

Thread closed.