Fernox or Sentinel for recently powerflushed very dirty microbore system ?

[PSH]

My Mother had her microbore system powerflushed a couple of years ago by "Powerflush Ltd" ,who did a marvelous job of cleaning out 40 years worh of sludge and got all her rads working again. The guy who did it, was honest enough to warn us that due to the microbore system having such stupidly tight bends and the huge amount of sludge in the system ,that more sludge could still be lurking and move around the system eventually causing one or two rads to run cooler over time . Sure enough two rads on the same run are now running luke warm, So I went into the attic and think i have found a small section of pipe on the return run from the problem rad where it bends around a tight corner just before it enters the manifold .With the help of a friend ,I am going to cut out the section where it suddenly goes from hot to cold and replace it . If we get it working ,I would like to know what you guys reccomend I put in the system afterwards to dissolve any remaining sludge, Fernox something or Sentinel something or what about Salamanda ? . Once I have run that around the system for a few weeks I would like to know what type of inhibitor I should use please. Also where is the best place to put the cleaner in the system, by draining the header tank and putting it in that way or drain a rad and putting it in there ?

Thanks .

Paul.

 

[Reg Man]

Fernox F3 is a good product. I would drain down the system a little then put it in the F&E and refill the system first. Leave it in for a few days on heat, then flush it out. Then check your water quality with litmus paper, looking for a PH of 7. Put Fernox inhibitor in at the end. Its a brave man who power flushes a micro bore system.

 

[Ermintrude]

My preference would be drain down and flush each leg via valves and hose in to drain, then rads, then x 800 in headder tank and let it run for 3 weeks. Then drain, flush and inhibitor . Two bottles in headder

 

[TomLane]

I'd also recommend cleaning out the F&E tank whilst you're up there. Quite often the sludge builds up in the bottom below the outlet to fill the system & on refilling all this sludge is disturbed & distributed through the system undoing some of the work that the cleaner has done! A wet vac to get the last bit of water out then some rags to give it a good clean is recommended!!

 

[FD Powerflow]

Just my two pence worth but no cleaner dissolves sludge. Its Iron Oxide so you would only be moving the sludge around the system, which is one of the reasons powerflushing microbore isn't a good idea. Best practice would be to get a heating engineer round to clean out the F&E tank with a blue henry, add a TF1 or Magnaclean to the return, dose the system with F3 and get them to come back a few days later to empty the filter. If they fit a TF1 its possible for you to empty the magnetite without having to break the seal so potentially you could service it yourself.

 

[PSH]

What do you mean by F&E ? I intend to clean out the tank as advised .As we are fairly sure which section of pipe is blocked, hopefully most of the sludge will be removed when we cut the section out and clean or replace it. The cleaner is just to put in system to shift any left over dirt ,after the pipe is back in place and it's all working again. After about a week, i will drain system down again,draining out any sludge ,then i will put in some inhibitor . thanks for all the replies folks.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

F&E feed and expansion, the little tank in the loft.

 

[Centralheatking]

Some fellas in Bradford sold their own stuff - water, a bit of milk, and a squirt of wd 40
all logo ed up. They got caught in the end - I always use branded products Sentinel
is best value.

centralheatking

 

[sputnick]

Totally agree about putting a magnaclean device or similar in. Once you start churning up the muck in the system you need a way to trap it before it gets back to the boiler. Sentinel x100 is good for afyercare

 

[Ermintrude]

+1 on mag

 

[jtsplumbing]

I always use Fernox products have done for meny years, use Fernox F5 heavy duty cleaner, run around hot system for 7 days, flush out then add Fernox F1, Would recommend you install a inline filter at same time

 

[SafeGasInstall]

My preference would be drain down and flush each leg via valves and hose in to drain, then rads, then x 800 in headder tank and let it run for 3 weeks. Then drain, flush and inhibitor . Two bottles in headder

Excellent post again !!!

Just to add to this a manual flush of all rads before Power flush ,and wet vac the F&E plus cut out and replace cold feed and vent pipe where they join the primary flow

 

[Ermintrude]

+1. Belt braces and a bit of string!

 

[PSH]

I managed to drain the system down at the weekend and was expecting to see black sludgy water pour from the rad, but was pleasantly surprised to see that no sludge at all came out and the water was the colour of a very weak cup of tea.I took the rad to an outside drain and flushed it with a garden hose and water flowed through no problem, no sludge appeared. Almost clear water continued to flow well from the feed pipe and also the return. Just in case the thermastic valve was at fault , I replaced it with just a standard on/off valve,and also chopped out the pipe in the attic which I thought must have had a blockage ,only to find it was clear,but at least i had eliminated that as a possible problem. Before i replaced the section of pipe, I poked a long this brush into the pipe ,right into the manifold and met no resistance ,it was clear. So I then re-filled the system and switched the heating back on.Hot water was reaching the rad,but still not flowing through the rad and back up the return,so i checked to see if there was any kinks or high points in the return in case air was getting trapped,but all was fine. I attached a hose to the rad and forced water back up the return at mains pressure ,hoping to push the air out of the pipe. I then bled the whole system and pump,and the rad is still not getting hot .It just wont flow back up the return into the manifold,so it must be a big air lock,so i tapped the pipe ,and still not working. The auto air bleed valve in the attic I notice is venting air now and again,so maybe the air might come out after a few days/weeks. I cleaned out the F&E tank ,but I have not bothered putting any cleaner in ,as i didnt think it needed it .Any ideas chaps.

 

[Reg Man]

System balancing. Turndown other rads to see if it pushes through to the one which is not working.

 

[PSH]

Sorry, I forgot to say, I turned off all the other rads ,to see if it would kick the dead one into life and nothing ! All the other rads apart from the rad in the lounge which is on the same leg/run, ie shares the same flow and return pipes, which is also cold ,has hot water reaching it but nothing coming back.

 

[PSH]

The lounge rad which had hot water running out of the feed pipe when we disconnected it ,which must prove that it is getting flow to it, but i guess could have an air lock or blockage in the return pipe,but it does not explain why the rad in the bathroom, which is a very short run back to the manifold,which has the return from the lounge rad " teed " into to it , on its way back to the manifold has no flow. Could this be an air lock,if so how can i get rid of it ?

 

[Reg Man]

Don't you just love micro bore?

 

[Ermintrude]

There is the problem. Piggy backed rads on micro bore. Ideally run rads back to manifold.

 

[Guildfordboiler]

Ive powerflushed loads of microbore systems and with great results just as long as the rad valves are each end of the rads and not them stupid ones on one side with the rod!! just use Kamco fx2 and twice the dose and always takes a full day!!

 

[PSH]

Ermintrude has got me thinking - I did wonder whether the system could not handle the piggy backed rads, but what is puzzling is the fact that there are 6 other rads on the system,sharing 3 other feed and return legs/runs using "T" connectors which are running perfectly hot . The work colleague who helped me do the job seems to think that the reason all the other runs are working is because on the run which is not working ,the feed and return pipes come up vertical into the ceiling ,then run along the top of the plaster board ,then start to rise on their approach to the return manifold,which he thinks could be trapping air bubbles which the water flow cannot shove along to where the auto vent valve is located. Q: Do you think I should try and level off these pipes so that there is no gradual incline on the run ?

 

[Ermintrude]

Rise is ok means air will go to manifold. Take rad off and run 10l out of each valve , that will clear air. Microbore can only deliver a small amount of heat 2kw ish?

 

[PSH]

Having waited a week to see if the auto bleed valve in the attic had got rid of all the possible air in the system, both the lounge and wet room rads are still cold,with just both the feed pipes getting hot. I have let 10 Ltrs of water run from both pipes as suggested .I forgot to say in my original post,that the guy who did the power flush,also fitted a Magnaclean filter ,which did trap a fair amount of black sludge during the first 6 months but is now running clean. The only thing i can think of doing now is to fiddle with the pipes in the attic to get them running as level as possible from where they enter the attic to where they meet the manifold. Any more ideas chaps,as it is now getting cold and my Mother suffers from COPD ,and she is having to use a hot air blower to warm the room up ,which is not ideal .

 

[Ermintrude]

Pipes should rise to manifold to encourage air to. Top.

 

[PSH]

Is that for both the feed and return pipes ?