Fitting a secondary gas ECV to old pipework

[reubs007]

Hi all,

I am a homeowner, please accept my apologies if this forum is trade-only or I am asking a question covered elsewhere (I had a good look first).

Basically, British Gas came to service the boiler recently in my flat. The engineer wanted to check the meter but when I told him it was locked away in my neighbour's cellar, he said I had to either move the meter or get an emergency control valve fitted in my flat.

The good news is that there's an access panel where the gas pipework comes into my flat. The bad news according to the engineer was that it was old style pipework and therefore very difficult to fit this valve.

Can you advise if this job is doable? Any idea of how complex? Do I need a gas safe engineer with a particular skill/qualification?

National Grid want somewhere in the region of £1500 to relocate the meter to an external wall! Gas supplier said they could move it 2m on the same wall but that's not much use in this situation.

Many thanks in advance for your help, apologies if this is a daft question.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Do you know what material is the pipe in the boxing is made of ?

And any chance of a few pics ?

The bg is right in regards to you needing an extra valve

 

[reubs007]

Do you know what material is the pipe in the boxing is made of ?

And any chance of a few pics ?

The bg is right in regards to you needing an extra valve

Hi Shaun,

Thanks for replying. It looks like a fairly thick black metal pipe to me. I will certainly take some pics tonight and post them up.

Thanks again!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Hi Shaun,

Thanks for replying. It looks like a fairly thick black metal pipe to me. I will certainly take some pics tonight and post them up.

Thanks again!

That's fine it's not impossible but it's not easy

But still can be done, that boxing might need to be removed and then put back after a valve is fitted

 

[Alex Knight]

Probably cheaper to get a key cut for your neighbours cellar...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Probably cheaper to get a key cut for your neighbours cellar...

Still need one as in locked room also depending on distance may still need one

 

[reubs007]

Probably cheaper to get a key cut for your neighbours cellar...

Unfortunately she is not keen on that idea!

 

[Last Plumber]

Unfortunately she is not keen on that idea!

You need to get a GSR Engineer to price for Valve and test point that's all. Should be pretty straight forward. You do need it for your own sake. If your neighbour is out you can't do much in an emergency !

 

[mfgs]

They are right, you do need one fitted. You could be left with an uncontrolled gas escape should thee worst happen and you cant gain access to the meter to isolate. Having one fitted internally will almost certainly be cheaper than the £1500 quoted to move the meter

 

[reubs007]

Here are some photos. Can you advise what a test point is?

Thanks again for the help! Cheers

 

[reubs007]

View attachment 28721View attachment 28722View attachment 28723

Here are some photos. Can you advise what a test point is?

Thanks again for the help! Cheers

 

[Gasmk1]

Won't be too easy as pipe needs to be cut and then threaded either side then your isolation tap with gas pressure test point fitted so your internals can be tested.

 

[Darren Jackson]

As above a bit fiddly but well do-able and a darn sight cheaper than the alternative. You need a test point for tightness testing and measuring the Working/Standing pressures etc. It is just a test nipple fitted to the pipe upstream to the new ECV so a gsr engineer can attach their U gauge/manometer to it.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Looks not bad but easy for the right engy to do

 

[Last Plumber]

I can't see pics properly but I advise you to have the appliance working pressure tested before any work is done. I don't know how far the run is but from what I can see, it looks like 3/4" iron. you need to make sure it is big enough. It might very well be but it's best to get it checked.

 

[CHRISX]

Hello reubs007,

Good advice from our Members regarding getting an additional ECV & Test point fitted to your Home`s Gas pipework - but something has occurred to me relating to having your Boiler serviced:

If You have a `non condensing` Gas Boiler part of the Servicing procedure is checking the Gas rate - this requires access to the Gas Meter to take readings and calculate the Gas rate that the Boiler is burning - and adjust it at the Boiler`s Gas valve if necessary.

Even if you have / will have in the future a Condensing Boiler - the Gas rate still has to be checked by Meter readings.

Although these Boilers have a NON Adjustable Gas rate / Gas valve the correct Gas rate must still be verified - that requires access to your Gas Meter.

The SAFETY requirements of being able to turn Off your Home`s Gas supply and check the Gas pressure / Gas tightness from the additional ECV & Test point will be satisfied - but Gas Engineers will still have to be able to access your Gas Meter when they are Servicing your Boiler.


I am not writing this to be pedantic - I just wanted you to realise that your Meter will still have to be accessed at least once a year even after you have the additional ECV & Test point fitted.

Chris

 

[CHRISX]

Duplicated post removed - this is happening almost every time that I post a message - and I note that other Members are also having this happen.

Chris

 

[reubs007]

Hello reubs007,

Good advice from our Members regarding getting an additional ECV & Test point fitted to your Home`s Gas pipework - but something has occurred to me relating to having your Boiler serviced:

If You have a `non condensing` Gas Boiler part of the Servicing procedure is checking the Gas rate - this requires access to the Gas Meter to take readings and calculate the Gas rate that the Boiler is burning - and adjust it at the Boiler`s Gas valve if necessary.

Even if you have / will have in the future a Condensing Boiler - the Gas rate still has to be checked by Meter readings.

Although these Boilers have a NON Adjustable Gas rate / Gas valve the correct Gas rate must still be verified - that requires access to your Gas Meter.

The SAFETY requirements of being able to turn Off your Home`s Gas supply and check the Gas pressure / Gas tightness from the additional ECV & Test point will be satisfied - but Gas Engineers will still have to be able to access your Gas Meter when they are Servicing your Boiler.


I am not writing this to be pedantic - I just wanted you to realise that your Meter will still have to be accessed at least once a year even after you have the additional ECV & Test point fitted.

Chris

Thanks Chris, good to know!

 

[reubs007]

Just a follow up question, is it possible to just cut out a section of the exposed pipework and then fit threads, valve etc in the gap? One engineer I spoke said "I will need to see the two fittings on either end of that pipework. As we will need to cut that black and re new them from its fitting" He wants £100 to come and take a look and do a quote. (!)

Can anyone explain what he means? Some of the pipework is boxed but then upstairs it disappears under the floor. I know it must convert to copper pipework somewhere but don't know where.

Thanks!

 

[PlumbBobBob]

he means that he wants to unscrew both ends of the steel pipe at the nearest fittings and replace the whole run in copper. if you pay his £100 to quote make sure he takes it off the final bill if he gets the job, otherwise get another couple of gs engineers out to quote.

 

[CHRISX]

Just a follow up question, is it possible to just cut out a section of the exposed pipework and then fit threads, valve etc in the gap? One engineer I spoke said "I will need to see the two fittings on either end of that pipework. As we will need to cut that black and re new them from its fitting" He wants


Hello again reubs007,

I would advise You not to use the person who wants £100.00 to investigate and quote for fitting an additional Gas ECV and Test point to your Gas pipe.

He might give you a ridiculous price and have `earned` £100.00 for just having a look around !

You would have lost the £100.00.


Is your property directly above the duct in your photo and would a Gas Engineer be able to take up flooring adjacent the duct within your property ?

Is the neighbours Basement [where your Gas Meter is] directly below the duct in your photo ?

Have You seen the Black Iron pipe [in the Basement] that comes from your Gas Meter and where it runs up / into the Duct ?

Those are the things that a Gas Engineer who would be doing the job would need to know IF they had decided to run new copper pipe [and the ECV & Test point] from the two nearest joints [Elbows ?] on the Iron pipe.


If You can work out the answers to those points I would advise you to get other Gas Safe registered Gas Engineers to quote for the work - but they will want you to show them both of the areas that I described so that they can visualise accessing both ends / where they would be connecting new copper pipe to.


Chris

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Don't understand why you need to take up floors or get the threading tackle out

Cut pipe
Use a compression coupling
Valve
Test nipple
Compression coupling / if you find a fitting need piece of pipe

Sorted

 

[CHRISX]

Don't understand why you need to take up floors or get the threading tackle out

Cut pipe
Use a compression coupling
Valve
Test nipple
Compression coupling / if you find a fitting need piece of pipe

Sorted

Hello Shaun,


Good idea - I take it that You mean GF `Primofit` or similar fittings ?

They would have to be ordered - I don`t know any walk in merchants that stock them [or anything similar] - a Supplier that I use for anything slightly unusual does stock them - the Company is called BES and they have a good website and next day delivery if required.

As the job can be planned getting these fittings would not be a problem.

Although the fittings are expensive [3/4" Compression coupling approx. £35.00 inc. vat] - the Labour saved by not having to take up Floors etc. and not having to disturb Carpets or Laminate flooring would justify the costs.

I know from previous experience and discussions with Engineers who were with me doing their Gas ACS Reassessments over the years that not many Gas Engineers would even think about compression fittings for Black Iron Gas pipework - even in situations such as this thread is about.

In this situation where an access Door [immediately openable] will have to be constructed to get to the new ECV and Test point - compression fittings would be permissible - but as You know if there was not going to be an access `Door` any form of compression fitting would not be allowed in a Duct / concealed location.

I think that I remember seeing in the Photos that the Black Iron Gas pipe was quite tight to both the Soil stack and the Water main [?] regarding using tools to tighten the fittings - I am guessing that is why the Gas Engineer stated He would want to go to the joints either side of the duct - perhaps having seen the Photos ?

Chris

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep there rated for gas (need to buy the gas ones tho not the water ones)

And few places stock them (no big sizes) normal run of your mill 3/4 1" etc

Bss, fwb, tecra, bes should be in stock

You will find not many people know about them / able / skilled enough to do the job

There looks enough roof (prob tight but still workable)

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep there rated for gas (need to buy the gas ones tho not the water ones)

And few places stock them (no big sizes) normal run of your mill 3/4 1" etc

Bss, fwb, tecra, bes should be in stock

You will find not many people know about them / able / skilled enough to do the job

There looks enough room (prob tight but still workable)

 

[CHRISX]

Yep there rated for gas (need to buy the gas ones tho not the water ones)

And few places stock them (no big sizes) normal run of your mill 3/4 1" etc

Bss, fwb, tecra, bes should be in stock

You will find not many people know about them / able / skilled enough to do the job

There looks enough room (prob tight but still workable)

Hello again Shaun,

I have been busy since we last corresponded on this thread so I could not follow up until now:

I have looked at the GF Primofit range of Iron Compression Gas fittings and unfortunately for the OP / reubs007 the range does not include any fitting to go from the existing Black Iron to Copper.


For example 3/4" Iron Compression x 3/4" Female Iron connectors [x 2]- to which 3/4" MIC`s could have been added - plus a section of 22mm Copper pipe and the 22mm ECV & Test point or plus a Test point coupling.

The range does not include any Gas Valves / ECV`s or Test point fittings.


As You probably know the GF Primofit range was designed to be able to run Gas pipework in Blocks of Flats / other Buildings without welding having to be done and basically the fittings range has just enough types to run pipework TO a Gas Meter which would then be piped up in the normal way with the Regulator / ECV etc.

I thought that I should post this information for reubs007 so that He would not be trying to find a Gas Engineer to carry out the work using only GF Primofit fittings.

Chris

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Hello again Shaun,

I have been busy since we last corresponded on this thread so I could not follow up until now:

I have looked at the GF Primofit range of Iron Compression Gas fittings and unfortunately for the OP / reubs007 the range does not include any fitting to go from the existing Black Iron to Copper.


For example 3/4" Iron Compression x 3/4" Female Iron connectors [x 2]- to which 3/4" MIC`s could have been added - plus a section of 22mm Copper pipe and the 22mm ECV & Test point or plus a Test point coupling.

The range does not include any Gas Valves / ECV`s or Test point fittings.


As You probably know the GF Primofit range was designed to be able to run Gas pipework in Blocks of Flats / other Buildings without welding having to be done and basically the fittings range has just enough types to run pipework TO a Gas Meter which would then be piped up in the normal way with the Regulator / ECV etc.

I thought that I should post this information for reubs007 so that He would not be trying to find a Gas Engineer to carry out the work using only GF Primofit fittings.

Chris

he would tho, also who said anything about doing in copper?

2 gas coupling (with one as a slip) f+f lever valve (yellow) a black t a x to 1/8th bush, 1/8th test nipple and a two foot piece of pipe

guess your a normal plumber / domestic gas engy?????????

 

[CHRISX]

he would tho, also who said anything about doing in copper?

2 gas coupling (with one as a slip) f+f lever valve (yellow) a black t a x to 1/8th bush and a two foot piece of pipe

guess your a normal plumber / domestic gas engy?????????

Shaun,

When You posted originally about Gas Iron Compression fittings you commented about no threading or copper work need be involved - the ONLY Gas Primofit 3/4" Iron x Iron compression fittings that are available are Couplings / Connectors - Tees and Elbows.

Most of the fitting that you have just listed are NOT available in Primofit - including the ECV and Tee to take a bush and Test nipple.

Without threading pieces of 3/4" Iron pipe to go between the 3/4" Iron Compression connectors and the ECV & Test point and now knowing that the Primofit fittings are very limited in the range how are You suggesting that this is done ?


Why would You be sarcastic about Me being a `normal Plumber / Domestic Gas Engineer` - what kind of Plumber are You ?


In my lifetime as a Plumber / Heating Engineer / Gas Engineer / Building Services Engineer [MSc.] I have done about 40% Non Domestic / Commercial / Industrial Plumbing & Heating work - the other 60% being 30% complete Heating, Plumbing & Gas systems in `High Class` Refurbishment Contracts and the rest `ordinary` Domestic Plumbing, Heating & Gas.

Before the separation of the Gas ACS into Domestic and Non Domestic I had most of the ACOPS categories - Domestic & Commercial and Catering Equipment plus LPG with the exception of sections that I would have never worked on.

At that time I worked on Contracts where I did a lot of Iron pipework.


Achieving almost all of the Gas ACOPS took a lot of knowledge and a lot of Money - when the ACS were introduced there were many more categories of assessments and they added up to far too much money for me to justify taking the Non Domestic ACS - so I became a `Domestic Gas Engineer`.


Chris

 

[CHRISX]

DUPLICATED POST REMOVED

Chris

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Shaun,

When You posted originally about Gas Iron Compression fittings you commented about no threading or copper work need be involved - the ONLY Gas Primofit 3/4" Iron x Iron compression fittings that are available are Couplings / Connectors - Tees and Elbows.

Without threading pieces of 3/4" Iron pipe to go between the 3/4" Iron Compression connectors and the ECV & Test point and now knowing that the Primofit fittings are very limited in the range how are You suggesting that this is done ?


Why would You be sarcastic about Me being a `normal Plumber / Domestic Gas Engineer` - what kind of Plumber are You ?


In my lifetime as a Plumber / Heating Engineer / Gas Engineer / Building Services Engineer [MSc.] I have done about 40% Non Domestic / Commercial / Industrial Plumbing & Heating work - the other 60% being 30% complete Heating, Plumbing & Gas systems in `High Class` Refurbishment Contracts and the rest `ordinary Domestic Plumbing, Heating & Gas.

Before the separation of the Gas ACS into Domestic and Non Domestic I had most of the ACOPS categories - Domestic & Commercial and Catering Equipment plus LPG with the exception of sections that I would have never worked on.

At that time I worked on Contracts where I did a lot of Iron pipework.


Achieving almost all of the Gas ACOPS took a lot of knowledge and a lot of Money - when the ACS were introduced there were many more categories of assessments and they added up to far too much money for me to justify taking the Non Domestic ACS - so I became a `Domestic Gas Engineer`.


Chris

so you know you can get nipples anywhere from 2-24"

you have a few options

http://www.gfps.com/appgate/ecat/common_flow/100006/FIT/en/109697/109707/109723/109726/overview.html

into a f+f valve and then just a normal coupling after the t about with these between

BLACK MEDIUM STEEL PIPE - 1/2" To 2" - BS1387 (EN10255) - INDUSTRIAL - B.S.P THREADED BOTH ENDS

and just cut the thread off the end for the coupling

 

[CHRISX]

Shaun,

When I looked at the GF Primofit range for some reason the 3/4" Iron compression x 3/4" Male Iron adaptor was either not in the section that I was looking at or I missed it - despite looking for that exact fitting !

It was only because I could not find that fitting or anything similar [e.g. female iron] that I wrote my first message to you tonight.

I apologise - I wrote in good faith - although surprised about not finding that type of fitting.

Your comment about me obviously being a `normal Plumber / Domestic Gas Engineer` was still unnecessarily sarcastic.

Chris

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Shaun,

The fittings that You gave the link to are NOT Iron x Iron Compression Gas fittings .

IF the Primofit GAS Compression fittings had some of those in the range what You suggested would be possible - BUT - they are NOT available in the GAS Primofit range.

Chris

all of these are available for gas

http://www.gfps.com/appgate/ecat/common_flow/100006/FIT/en/109697/109707/109723/index.html

as its just a different seal (NBR)

pg 23

http://www.bpindex.co.uk/res/pdfs/b5433c6de0b213.pdf

 

[CHRISX]

all of these are available for gas

http://www.gfps.com/appgate/ecat/common_flow/100006/FIT/en/109697/109707/109723/index.html

as its just a different seal (NBR)

pg 23

http://www.bpindex.co.uk/res/pdfs/b5433c6de0b213.pdf

Hello Shaun,

Thanks for the links to the Catalogue etc.

I had previously thought that the Gas Primofit fittings were made from Carbon steel as I had read a few years ago that they were tested / rated to be able to survive very high temperatures in the event of a fire - although to be used on mild steel pipe I thought that the carbon steel aspect was to prevent the fitting deforming and causing the seal to be broken.

As You probably know they were developed for use on Gas to enable Gas pipework to be installed in Blocks of Flats / other high rise buildings without welding being required.

It was because of that `Carbon steel` specification that I was not really surprised when I seemed to have found that there was not a full range of fittings types.

I was not aware that because the Gas fittings are seemingly NOT Carbon steel - the entire range is available for use on Gas with the Fire safe seals - although I do note that there is a `Do Not` instruction regarding taking the fittings apart before installation.

Thanks again for the information - although I am unlikely to ever be using Primofit fittings I like to know the correct situation / specification about any Gas, Plumbing or Heating fittings.

Chris

 

[CHRISX]

DUPLICATED POST REMOVED

Chris