Going to install a Magnetic filter some help needed identifying pipes

[Anthony7193]

Hi, new member but would appreciate any help, I am a DIYer but generally consider myself competent enough to do basic plumbing so am going to put in a Magnaclean Professional 2.

I want to ensure I put it on the return as I am also going to be borrowing a Magnacleanse for an initial deep clean.

So I am identifying pipes etc and am a little stuck so before I buy a small camera and/or rip up some floor boards I wanted to fully understand what I was seeing.

System is gravity fed with a pump and Y plan valve and the tank is an Indirect Open Vented unit, so I have identified the feed which I can only assume comes from the boiler, this then goes as usual, pump then 3 way valve.

I can see the return from the H/W tank and can see it disappear into the floor at the back of the airing cupboard which is making me fearful that the Return from the central heating must under the floor join into this before making its way back to the boiler, does that seem normal behaviour, I can see the top of the boiler there is 2, 22mm pipes so can only assume that one is feed and one is return, there is about 3m between the point the H/W return and the boiler (the boiler is downstairs with the airing cupboard upstairs).

I do however have some confusion and unfortunately do not have many pictures of what I mean on me.

Firstly there is a 15mm pipe with an isolating valve (not a gate but the type I use to isolate taps etc) that runs from the H/W return and the feed after the pump, reading online it suggests it might be a release valve in case all TRV's are closed (I have 2 towel rails so not an issue) but obviously as it is an isolating valve that does not really make sense, I confirm that the top half is red hot while the below is only warm as expected I guess as it is the return.

Second thing is I have a some extra pipes that feed into something I have never seen before, picture attached.

And to make this even stupider I have totally forgot which pipe goes where and I am not at home at the moment, what I do know though is the one that goes to the left (which is the back of the airing cupboard) ends up also in the floor and is red hot.

Is there anything else that the boiler should be feeding?

Thanks and apologies for the vagueness, if I need to I will take some more pictures later.

 

[gmartine]

Cut your post by 2/3, we are only simple folk.

 

[Anthony7193]

Cut your post by 2/3, we are only simple folk.

Not sure what I should remove, no idea if the background is important.

 

[Gasmk1]

a better picture would help that weird looking thing is called an air separator. or airjec

 

[Anthony7193]

a better picture would help that weird looking thing is called an air separator. or airjec

Thats perfect, thanks, so from what I am reading that is entirely to do with the feed and therefore not going to be the magic answer to my attempt to locate the heating return valve somewhere other than buried under the floor!

Thanks again though, much appreciated.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Can you place right above the boiler ?

 

[steadyon]

1. The hot water connection SHOULD be the last one on the return circuit before the boiler. However, it might no be.
2. With the system cold, turn your system on. Feel both 22mm pipes going in to the top of your boiler. The one which gets hot first is the flow, the other is the return to the boiler. Insertion into the return at this point guarantees the Magnaclean is in the right place. If necessary and possible, consider diverting the return in a small loop to the side of the boiler and insert the Magnaclean in that loop. Best not to try this if you have a lot of radiators, as it might restrict the flow more than the system will take.

 

[Anthony7193]

Can you place right above the boiler ?

Unfortunately not there is literally an inch of pipe before it goes into the wall.

 

[Anthony7193]

1. The hot water connection SHOULD be the last one on the return circuit before the boiler. However, it might no be.
2. With the system cold, turn your system on. Feel both 22mm pipes going in to the top of your boiler. The one which gets hot first is the flow, the other is the return to the boiler. Insertion into the return at this point guarantees the Magnaclean is in the right place. If necessary and possible, consider diverting the return in a small loop to the side of the boiler and insert the Magnaclean in that loop. Best not to try this if you have a lot of radiators, as it might restrict the flow more than the system will take.

Hard to describe why but don't think it is in my case as I can see the pipe clearly coming out of the cylinder and running into the floor with no connections to that pipe at any point (other than my weird 15mm join) so can only assume that it joins this pipe somewhere under the floor.

The boiler is in the utility room and not really in a good place to change the pipe if I can avoid it, would mean ripping out a fair amount of the plasterboard etc.

I have ordered a boroscope type camera so will try and see what happens with the H/W return when it arrives tomorrow, if not then I guess my best bet is to take a few pieces of floor up that run between the area above the boiler and the airing cupboard, can only assume that is where it would join.

Thanks for the reply though all of you have been really helpful.

 

[Ric2013]

If you're going to spend money on tools, why not just get a professional in? And I don't say this often.

 

[Anthony7193]

If you're going to spend money on tools, why not just get a professional in? And I don't say this often.

The camera is only £19, If I can find the common return pipe then I can fit the filter, seems pointless paying a plumber to come and take up some floorboards when I can that myself, don't get me wrong if this was anything related to the boiler I would not touch it.

If all else fails I will just wait until the boiler finally packs up and get it cleaned and filter added when I get them to move the boiler slightly.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

The camera is only £19, If I can find the common return pipe then I can fit the filter, seems pointless paying a plumber to come and take up some floorboards when I can that myself, don't get me wrong if this was anything related to the boiler I would not touch it.

If all else fails I will just wait until the boiler finally packs up and get it cleaned and filter added when I get them to move the boiler slightly.

Problem is you can't fit the filter under the floor

 

[Anthony7193]

Problem is you can't fit the filter under the floor

I am working blind at the moment but am thinking if the join is not too far away I could move it back into the airing cupboard, if not then maybe build some kind of access hatch, if my guess is correct it will be right inside of the built in wardrobe so aesthetics are not an issue.

 

[Ric2013]

. . . and you'll have lots of fun with the boroscope.

Well, if the pump and three port valve is inside the cupboard, then one can hope that the point at which the CH and the DHW returns meet is unlikely to be far away. I suppose if you want to bring the combined returns up through the floor and then return down through the Magnaclean, then that may work. It is, in fact, what I had to do in my own house for similar reasons to yours. With any luck you can get that in the airing cupboard.

 

[SimonG]

I'd be adapting pipework and fitting by the boiler. But then it's rumoured I know what I'm doing.

To be fair this type of job could be a piece of cake or an absolute nightmare. Even for a pro.

From your posts I think you may struggle. No fun if you screw it up, flood the house, airlock the pipework etc.

Cheaper and easier to get a pro now rather than if it goes breasts up.

IMHO

 

[king of pipes]

Why bother chemically clean the system attach your borrowed Adey magnaclense via a removed radiator run the system, close all the rad valves except for one let the unit do it's work open the next rad and close off the other keep doing this till you have been through em all , open them all up again drain the system and flush through again , refill adding good quality inhibitor and leave it at that . Kop

 

[dan_the_plumber]

The thing is with Plumbing and heating is that what looks like s simple job to begin with very often turns in to a far more complicated job. You may well reach the limit of your knowledge sooner than you think. Why not get a good plumber in and work with him. That way you get a proper job done and you learn a bit at the same time.

 

[Anthony7193]

Thanks all, had my brother round today who is doing plumbing while learning on the job he used some rather fancy looking gun to make the connections and after some identification I managed to locate the final return just above the boiler, end result is job done and just need to build a box around the filter and pipes with access for servicing, again appreciate all the help was very helpful.

 

[king of pipes]

Very creative . Kop

 

[Rob Foster]

Why do home owners etc always choose magnaclean ?
Probably because they advertise most.. they are by no means the best filters but are the most popular. The magnets are poor in comparison and I am not impressed with the strainer design which collects or not the none magnetic debris.
I have had a significant contribution to several magnetic filters on sale in uk and European sales arena. But cannotbmention them cause it’s against ukpf rules ....so which other filters would experienced installers on here choose
Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[SimonG]

Would have liked to see access to the bottom of the filter.

 

[king of pipes]

Would have liked to see access to the bottom of the filter.

And a couple of brackets on the pipework.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

hes done well to crimp those bottom elbows

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Why do home owners etc always choose magnaclean ?
Probably because they advertise most.. they are by no means the best filters but are the most popular. The magnets are poor in comparison and I am not impressed with the strainer design which collects or not the none magnetic debris.
I have had a significant contribution to several magnetic filters on sale in uk and European sales arena. But cannotbmention them cause it’s against ukpf rules ..so which other filters would experienced installers on here choose
Rob Foster aka centralheatking

you can mention them just cant link to your own site for sales etc

and adey are the only ones i fit unless im tight (space wise) then i use the omega

 

[SimonG]

Trappex Centramag 2 for me.

 

[Rob Foster]

you can mention them just cant link to your own site for sales etc

and adey are the only ones i fit unless im tight (space wise) then i use the omega

Shaun all my business to do with mag filters was concluded by 2010 and I have no money
Tied up,in any of the ones I designed and no royalty deals ,
So,I am well able to comment without predudice . In my opinion there are too many on the market and the specification enabling buyers to compare the available ones is flawed. I do not like the magnaclean because it is a cheap poor powered magnet unit mass produced . mr Adey
A plumber just like us designed it and then it got ramped by the likes of bg etc . He made good money and well done and got out .. Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Ric2013]

Would have liked to see access to the bottom of the filter.

On a Magnaclean? What for?

 

[king of pipes]

So the filter can be drained and cleaned out and handy for adding inhibitor . Kop

 

[Rob Foster]

So the filter can be drained and cleaned out and handy for adding inhibitor . Kop

Quite right Mr KOP.

 

[Ric2013]

So the filter can be drained and cleaned out and handy for adding inhibitor . Kop

Ah thanks. Didn't realise that this model had a drain port at the bottom. I wonder where Magnaclean got that idea from?

 

[dan_the_plumber]

Yeah, I had a magnaclean a few years back that I had to take off to drain part of the system leaving the valves in place. When I came to reattach the actually plastic body to the valves I noticed the thread had gone and would not re-seal. I had to buy a whole new filter!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yeah, I had a magnaclean a few years back that I had to take off to drain part of the system leaving the valves in place. When I came to reattach the actually plastic body to the valves I noticed the thread had gone and would not re-seal. I had to buy a whole new filter!

Old red label if you phone adey up they will supply you with a new one foc

 

[Ric2013]

Old red label if you phone adey up they will supply you with a new one foc

They wanted to charge me enough for a seal set and lid tool for a customer. I told them that the customer felt, like me, that a TF2 was a better solution than the cost of new seals every few years. I wasn't lying either.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

They wanted to charge me enough for a seal set and lid tool for a customer. I told them that the customer felt, like me, that a TF2 was a better solution than the cost of new seals every few years. I wasn't lying either.

??

 

[Ric2013]

Translation:

Adey wanted to charge me when I enquired on behalf of a customer:


The lid spanner you require is product code BSPN1 – Cost £10.59p and the seal pack is product code SEAPKPRO – Cost £11.50p.

There will also be a delivery charge of £2.95.

In practice, the lid comes undone with grips and the customer told me that my cleaning it and greasing it up seemed to have worked for now, but if it leaked again, he'd just get me to replace it with a better model. I felt £11.50 for three O rings was a lot and that a plastic lid spanner should not be more expensive than a Britool metal spanner.