How to design a domestic plumbing and heating system

[Mahogany]

I am starting a large victorian renovation and it will involve, (amongst everything else) installation of an entirely new heating and plumbing system.

Plumbing, like most trades, seems to have two main aspects; design and installation.
The installation part on my last two projects was painful. The plumbers seemed happy to work to a wider tolerance that I'd deem acceptable. I had to repeatedly check and correct the setting out of 1st fix & associated ware positions. I seemed to spend much time overseeing a supposid specialist trade and in frustration I frequently said to myself I could do this myself!

Clearly I wouldn't have the knowledge or speed of an experienced plumber, but being a carpenter by trade and therefore well experienced "on the tools" I believe I'd have the dexterity to install a large amount of plumbing/heating system. Perhaps then enlist a plumber on a day rate for soldering, final connections, etc.

Currently I don't have the knowledge to design the system. I see a lot of commentor's on other self-build forums design their own systems. Perhaps it's something I could design if there was a suitable "design your own" resource.
From initial research I have a basic idea of some very general specifics for the system but clearly this is far from a working design:

• The house is Victorian with solid brick external walls. I won't install EWI, neither IWI due to the risk of interstitial condensation so I'm not chasing thermal efficiency with the refurbishment works. In such situation I understand that a gas fired CH system with radiators to be the most suitable
• Pipework in Hep20 or similar to facilitate a simpler install
• All F&R to radiators on individual loops from a manifold
• Domestic feeds similarly from a manifold
• My rear facing roof surfaces are perfectly orientated to capture sun rays so I would like to instal solar panels although I have no idea how these will be integrated into the MEP system
• I believe the house will be far from airtight so no MVHR but

I've worked on large scale projects where the MEP system is designed by specialist MEP consulting engineers but does anyone know if there are smaller MEP engineers that design the plumbing & heating system for domestic projects and if this is a common procurement route for a self-builder?
Has anyone had a design drawn up this way? Maybe someone can recommend an designer.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Might be best to speak to rob b at heat engineer

But tbh any decent heating engy can design the system but as you say you’ve been burnt before

But short end of the stick after Heatloss is done you want the most pita room radiator wise this sets your flow temp you want this as low as possible max these days is 55 ideally you want to be around 45 or lower

I would use home runs to each rad in mlcp as your wanting to use a like a ufh manifold set up

Ideally 4 pipe boiler on wc eg unvented cylinder circuits connected to the boiler so you can run two flow temps (viessmann 200 system etc)

I would do pv and into a battery and any excess into an eddi for the unvented immersion

 

[Robooo]

I'd read some books on the subject you are interested in and go from there or employ someone, a good handyman at least. You can save significant amount of time, pain and money to start with.
I'm here because I'm leaning plumbing but what you described it sounds very complex and a lot can go wrong. Good luck to you!

 

[oz-plumber]

Hi Mahogany,

You state that you think you can do the job a plumber better yourself.
Then you're asking for info on this site?

Clearly not!!

Then you go on to say that you don't have the knowledge.....
But you believe you have the dexterity to install larger plumbing / heating systems?
Then you want to acquire a plumber to solder joints for you - on day rate?!

Best thing for this situation is for you to pay a hydraulics consultant to design a hot / cold water design, heating system design and a waste / sewer design.
Then, at least, you will have some plans to follow and install to.

They do charge for their services and in the past, from experience, justifiable amounts.

It seems you have a too bigger project to do to warrant asking advice on here re: plumbing and heating system designs.
We give advice but not warranty - you sound like you need warranty on the system you want to install.
You may get into issues during the project and you may not find a solution on here to help you.

 

[Mahogany]

Hi Mahogany,

You state that you think you can do the job a plumber better yourself.
Then you're asking for info on this site?

Clearly not!!

Then you go on to say that you don't have the knowledge.....
But you believe you have the dexterity to install larger plumbing / heating systems?
Then you want to acquire a plumber to solder joints for you - on day rate?!

Best thing for this situation is for you to pay a hydraulics consultant to design a hot / cold water design, heating system design and a waste / sewer design.
Then, at least, you will have some plans to follow and install to.

They do charge for their services and in the past, from experience, justifiable amounts.

It seems you have a too bigger project to do to warrant asking advice on here re: plumbing and heating system designs.
We give advice but not warranty - you sound like you need warranty on the system you want to install.
You may get into issues during the project and you may not find a solution on here to help you.

Hi Oz,

Not sure if we understand each other correctly but this is the DIY subforum, so I'm in the right place to ask about doing it myseflf.
But regardless I was asking for a recommendation for a MEP design consultant to design the system, that is what I asked for.
Appreciate if you, or any other could recommend one in the UK?

 

[gmartine]

Properly prepared spray foam insulation won't cause interstitial condensation and not addressing any improvement in insulation while you can is I suggest rather perilous unless you intend using other heating sources too.
Is this a commercial project or for your own home, you don't really need a system designer for a domestic premises even if it is large you just need to find somebody decent. A commercial plumber will have a greater knowledge base that might better suit as well be more versed in providing a plan.

 

[Chuck]

I'd suggest talking to some local firms of 'commercial heating engineers'. They'll usually have an H&V consulting engineer who they are used to working with or, if they are a big firm, is on their staff.

You can just Google for 'Domestic Heating Consultant' and include your county in the search. You'll find dozens of firms offering exactly the sort of service you want.

 

[Mahogany]

Properly prepared spray foam insulation won't cause interstitial condensation and not addressing any improvement in insulation while you can is I suggest rather perilous unless you intend using other heating sources too.
Is this a commercial project or for your own home, you don't really need a system designer for a domestic premises even if it is large you just need to find somebody decent. A commercial plumber will have a greater knowledge base that might better suit as well be more versed in providing a plan.

Hi Gmartine, as an aside one thing I'm sure is in my particular circumstances (solid 9" brick walls) maintaining breathability of the walls is paramount therefore most insulations and certainly spray foam insulation would risk causing interstitial condensation.
Keeping my walls dry & damp free may come with (supposid) higher heating costs but I'm OK with that. You must accept that buying a victorian house.

I'd suggest talking to some local firms of 'commercial heating engineers'. They'll usually have an H&V consulting engineer who they are used to working with or, if they are a big firm, is on their staff.

You can just Google for 'Domestic Heating Consultant' and include your county in the search. You'll find dozens of firms offering exactly the sort of service you want.

Hi Chuck, I will have a Google. I haven't done so yet in the hope of getting one recommended but good to know what I'm looking for is an actually service that can be provided!

 

[Basher]

Keeping my walls dry & damp free may come with (supposid) higher heating costs but I'm OK with that. You must accept that buying a victorian house.

I don't know if you are aware of the "Society for the Protection of Ancient Buildings" (SPAB) who are very much into the science of protecting old buildings. They've done a lot of research into the insulating properties of different construction techniques, and the need for permeability of insulation etc. and I believe there are now technical solutions that can provide a degree of insulation without causing harm, if indeed insulation is actually warranted.
If you are interested, their reports are accessible via this link.

A Decade of Research into the Energy Efficiency of Old Buildings

An introduction to our findings, which we will present at the forthcoming STBA/SPAB conference

www.spab.org.uk