Impossible to fix flow problem? 4 grand down so far...

[sammathias]

The boiler always "kettles" on starting up too.

Boiler empty

 

[Darryl Pullen]

Fixitflav - and that is what I don't get... Seems to me like perhaps I do have a circulation problem a bit but def no blockage as such. And it feels like the boiler is just too picky about the conditions it will operate in. Thinking the only way to tell for sure is putting a flow sensor in, on the return by the boiler? Could just be that I have some circulation, but very limited, the pipes are 35 years old...

 

[Darryl Pullen]

I also think if I was to put a huge pump in there, it might just work!

 

[fixitflav]

Fixitflav - and that is what I don't get... Seems to me like perhaps I do have a circulation problem a bit but def no blockage as such. And it feels like the boiler is just too picky about the conditions it will operate in. Thinking the only way to tell for sure is putting a flow sensor in, on the return by the boiler? Could just be that I have some circulation, but very limited, the pipes are 35 years old...

Maybe sammathias has a point, it could be as simple as that. What is system pressure? Is there flow from a vent point on the boiler, or the pipework close by?
Where is the expansion vessel connected?
Some photos and sketches would be useful.

 

[Darryl Pullen]

System pressure is sat around 0.6 bar rising up a bit when hot water is on currently. Can top it up later, didn't think that would make a huge difference? Expansion vessel is connected on the return I think, next to the boiler, will draw it out later... Wasn't sure I understood the question about flow from the vent point on the boiler?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Pressure should be between 1 and 1.5 dependant on boiler when cold

 

[Darryl Pullen]

I am thinking the only way to bottom this out is to buy some flow meters and determine once and for all if I have flow or note? One was suggested in earlier post, but also found these Piusi K24 AdBlue™ Flow Meter | BEST Price | In Stock | Fast Del|

 

[sammathias]

A small grundfos 15/50 will be capable of heating a 12 rad system...what makes you think a huge pump is going to make any difference? Going down the route of flow meters is just wasting time and money.
Time to get a decent heating engineer out and get him to read the installation instructions on bleeding the boiler to start. And look over your heating system. No doubt something straight forward.

 

[fixitflav]

Wasn't sure I understood the question about flow from the vent point on the boiler?

The system should have a number of manual air vent points, usually just a knurled nut to open. The one near the boiler will give some idea whether the boiler is full. Water should flow from the vent.

 

[chris watkins]

Darryl why do you think you are still capable of sorting this out & why no photos ?
If the boiler does the same thing when just the hot water is on (no heating) a small 22mm flow & return, then the problem lies on the primary circuit between the boiler & the upstairs cylinder cupboard. A flow meter is going to tell you what we already know & then what, what will you do to fix it?
Find someone who understands what they are doing, it is more than likely a simple fix as a number have suggested.
I am out of here, good luck.

 

[Darryl Pullen]

Thanks. I don't think I am capable of fixing it, I know I am not, just looking for some creative ideas and to learn a little really. Had two different plumbers out so far, 4k spent and the system is behaving identically, they tried all the "simple fixes" apparently and some more complex ones. Really appreciated the responses and ideas.

Tried to take some pics last night and all the useful bits are blocked by the big red pressure ball thing from the sealed system! Will try again or draw it down later.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Thanks. I don't think I am capable of fixing it, I know I am not, just looking for some creative ideas and to learn a little really. Had two different plumbers out so far, 4k spent and the system is behaving identically, they tried all the "simple fixes" apparently and some more complex ones. Really appreciated the responses and ideas.

Tried to take some pics last night and all the useful bits are blocked by the big red pressure ball thing from the sealed system! Will try again or draw it down later.

There’s your problem. You need a heating engineer and not a plumber mate.

 

[Darryl Pullen]

Valid point...

 

[Darryl Pullen]

 

[sammathias]

Oooosshh. How many copper pipes do you have coming from the boiler itself?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Oooosshh. How many copper pipes do you have coming from the boiler itself?

Good question.

 

[sammathias]

Picture of under the boiler at connections?

 

[Gasmk1]

no bypass ?

 

[sammathias]

no bypass ?

I think that's the least of his worries.

 

[Gasmk1]

i know it looks like a shocker of an install

 

[Karl]

Ask around friends, family or even the local plumbers merchants for a highly recommended heating engineer! Word of mouth and reputation is the best advertisement
Good luck

 

[AMGasServices]

Is it me or are the flow and return pipes looped together ? (if you look at the second picture on the second row)

 

[chris watkins]

I know I said I would come back but
if you paid £4k for that you were quite royally tucked up mate. 22mm equal tee before the pump what is that for ?
York, E/F & compression used, there are 2no. 22mm couplings on a 150mm length in-between a tee & elbow, more like wiped joints than soldered, get a pro in & stop messing around.

 

[AMGasServices]

I agree with Chris.

Personally I’d rip up the piping the cylinder cupboard and around the boiler and repipe the lot.

 

[Darryl Pullen]

Pictures might be a bit confusing. Connections are at the top of the boiler, just 2, 1 flow, 1 return. They are not looped together but the pic makes it look like it. 3 pipes into the roof. Flow going up, and two returns from upstairs. H/w return and upstairs rads. They join the pipe from the flood on the far right, downstairs return...

 

[Darryl Pullen]

Some of that pipework in the boiler cupboard a crap DIY job previous owner must have done to pipe in a shower pump. Not linked to heating circuit.

 

[AMGasServices]

I have uploaded a image how your systems should look but it is not 100% correct as there are a few things missing.

 

[Darryl Pullen]

Thanks. So even so some of the pipe work is a bit shoddy right. There seems to be nothing fundamentally wrong. Flow up to pump, into auto valve and feeding dhw tank and/or rads. H/w and rads returns all into boiler cupboard. Pressure tank on return in boiler cupboard with filling loop...

 

[Darryl Pullen]

Expansion vessel, not pressure tank! Couldn't remember the words.

 

[sammathias]

22mm equal tee before the pump what is that for ?

Looks like the old feed and vent, can only assume it's capped off higher up and not just isolated on that 15mm gate valve.

The flow and return does loop together by some form of close coupled tee arrangement.

If your certain that that motorized valve is working correctly and the wiring is correct it probably is a blockage 'solder' .

In picture 5 you could unjoin the two 22mm tees far right and see how it performs.

Basically with that complete mess it's going to be impossible for us and best to get a 'plumber' to rectify that pipework.

 

[Rob Foster]

It might be an idea to fit a second hand pump on the rtn, wire it straight to a plug, plug it in let it run all the time on fast and see what happens. 2nd hand pump is dead cheap

 

[Darryl Pullen]

I have two spare second hand pumps! I wondered if that would be ok to try that?

 

[sammathias]

I disagree.

 

[Darren Jackson]

Which way is the arrow pointing on the pump body? Hard to see on your picture. Also if the boiler was connected when flushed it could be full of crap now. Might be worth cleaning out the hex, plate & F/R valves.

 

[sammathias]

Darryl I will ask again but reword it. How many connections/tappings/valves are there on the underside of the boiler?