NO One wants to be a plumber??

[Dave500]

It took a while for me to get into plumbing (at age 24 and still on my apprenticeship) but as many have said why work at a few £ an hour when your 16 when you can go to a supermarket and get double the wage. Looking back I should of got into the industry earlier but being 18 and on double what I'm on now its hard to think why anyone else would if they really didn't want to get into plumbing.

 

[student plumber]

As a member of the Playstation generation, or at least the N64 generation, I can honestly say that you may be right generally, but I could make similar generalisations about your generation, and you might not appreciate it. I'm sure you don't mean to cause offence, but I'm finding it really hard not to take it.

My point is that that this sort of talk just makes whoever is being generalised think: Two Fingers!

Imagine starting a sentence with 'Black people (generally)...'. Can you see where I am coming from?

None taken, I know people who have made comments about my generation before and they had been right and wrong.

But I was making a generalisation concerning some of the students I met at college.
I could have stated that this was based on personal experiences and not just something I read in the paper; for which I apologise for any offence caused.
It was like 16, 17, and maybe 18 year olds who behaving like they don't want to know.

Throwing bits of pipe, pens or anything else about the workshop; or sword fights with lengths of copper pipe 4 or 5 feet long.
Constantly on mobiles in class/workshop, no matter how many times told to put them away; going off topic, talking amongst themselves, making weird noises and no they did not have an involuntary response condition.
Going to class without course book, paper pad, pen or anything, then saying "I didn't know what we were doing I thought we were in workshop"; so why did they turn up in class at the same day and time as they have done for weeks.
Going to morning / lunch / afternoon break and not coming back for rest of the day because what they were doing was "boring".
All students were told how important maths are and a number of examples were given, including some of personal experience.
But they walk out of a class because they can't understand the tutor (neither could anyone), but she was writing everything down correctly, I followed it and learnt something (I have always had bad maths so took the opportunity offered), but it was to difficult for them.
Turning up for maths and there is no tutor, and instead of going to library and studying or finding a maths tutor and asking for some work they close blinds, turn off lights, use class PC and large screen and put a film on, after messing about and swearing; there were a number of students who were trying to study but ended up leaving that lesson.
There were teenage students on a health course who caused so much disruption in maths the tutor was regularly in tears and ended up leaving the college.

I made a complaint and the head of maths was telling me about the problems they are having.

From what I saw at college of those who were early twenties or younger (whose ages I could identify), there were some but not all who did not seem that interested, from my personal experience they were generally not interested.
Even the tutor stopped giving out homework because not many students were bothering to do it.

And I'm not saying where this college is.

 

[Phil]

Sounds more or less the same as my college 20 years ago, it will never change.

 

[Ric2013]

Sounds more or less the same as my college 20 years ago, it will never change.

Wow. Sounds bad. I must be luckier than I thought at my college then. Before I enrolled on my course at Hyffoddiant Ceredigion Training, the first thing the head of plumbing did was sit me down and try to find out what I expected to get from plumbing - and what were my salary expectations. Once he was satisfied that I had a general interest, he managed to persuade me to study there.

Because the college is not trying to get people onto the course that aren't actually interested or for whom the course would not be suitable, there are only 5 of us in our year and the course faces an uncertain future in the long term. Ironic that a college that is actually acting in the interests of its students is seen as more of a failure than one that is happy to take on people that shouldn't be there at all.

If we are left to our own devices, we do tend to chat amongst ourselves, but usually we end up having debates on the Water Regulations or on what the distinction between a pressure reducing valve and an RPZ valve is, so we are rarely far off-topic. In practical lessions, though we do have official break times, we are allowed to leave at will as we always come back. Most of us are on apprenticeships and are keen to qualify so as to get a higher wage once we have done so.

There are exceptions (in the year above mine), but I have never seen any serious horseplay on anything like the scale you describe above.

I must say I felt that this was what I expected (hoped) university would be like, though my experience at university (University of Kent at Canterbury) was somewhat different and I did feel people taking a strong interest in the course was more the exception than the rule, but I suppose that is what you get for trying to send 50% of people to university. Still, it no doubt reduces the unemployment statistics.

 

[student plumber]

Wow. Sounds bad. I must be luckier than I thought at my college then. Before I enrolled on my course at Hyffoddiant Ceredigion Training, the first thing the head of plumbing did was sit me down and try to find out what I expected to get from plumbing - and what were my salary expectations. Once he was satisfied that I had a general interest, he managed to persuade me to study there.

Because the college is not trying to get people onto the course that aren't actually interested or for whom the course would not be suitable, there are only 5 of us in our year and the course faces an uncertain future in the long term. Ironic that a college that is actually acting in the interests of its students is seen as more of a failure than one that is happy to take on people that shouldn't be there at all.

If we are left to our own devices, we do tend to chat amongst ourselves, but usually we end up having debates on the Water Regulations or on what the distinction between a pressure reducing valve and an RPZ valve is, so we are rarely far off-topic. In practical lessions, though we do have official break times, we are allowed to leave at will as we always come back. Most of us are on apprenticeships and are keen to qualify so as to get a higher wage once we have done so.

There are exceptions (in the year above mine), but I have never seen any serious horseplay on anything like the scale you describe above.

I must say I felt that this was what I expected (hoped) university would be like, though my experience at university (University of Kent at Canterbury) was somewhat different and I did feel people taking a strong interest in the course was more the exception than the rule, but I suppose that is what you get for trying to send 50% of people to university. Still, it no doubt reduces the unemployment statistics.

There were about 30 students split into two classes and each had one tutor.
About 6 students had gone, jumped or pushed; there were other incidents but you get the idea.
A lot of the incidents in workshop happened when tutor was somewhere else teaching.

Also,
I did have a part time job night cleaning a sports centre where I worked harder than most of the migrant workers; and find it insulting when I hear British bosses say "British workers won't do dirty jobs"

 

[Dave500]

None taken, I know people who have made comments about my generation before and they had been right and wrong.

But I was making a generalisation concerning some of the students I met at college.
I could have stated that this was based on personal experiences and not just something I read in the paper; for which I apologise for any offence caused.
It was like 16, 17, and maybe 18 year olds who behaving like they don't want to know.

Throwing bits of pipe, pens or anything else about the workshop; or sword fights with lengths of copper pipe 4 or 5 feet long.
Constantly on mobiles in class/workshop, no matter how many times told to put them away; going off topic, talking amongst themselves, making weird noises and no they did not have an involuntary response condition.
Going to class without course book, paper pad, pen or anything, then saying "I didn't know what we were doing I thought we were in workshop"; so why did they turn up in class at the same day and time as they have done for weeks.
Going to morning / lunch / afternoon break and not coming back for rest of the day because what they were doing was "boring".
All students were told how important maths are and a number of examples were given, including some of personal experience.
But they walk out of a class because they can't understand the tutor (neither could anyone), but she was writing everything down correctly, I followed it and learnt something (I have always had bad maths so took the opportunity offered), but it was to difficult for them.
Turning up for maths and there is no tutor, and instead of going to library and studying or finding a maths tutor and asking for some work they close blinds, turn off lights, use class PC and large screen and put a film on, after messing about and swearing; there were a number of students who were trying to study but ended up leaving that lesson.
There were teenage students on a health course who caused so much disruption in maths the tutor was regularly in tears and ended up leaving the college.

I made a complaint and the head of maths was telling me about the problems they are having.

From what I saw at college of those who were early twenties or younger (whose ages I could identify), there were some but not all who did not seem that interested, from my personal experience they were generally not interested.
Even the tutor stopped giving out homework because not many students were bothering to do it.

And I'm not saying where this college is.

This is what it's like at my college now. Same as you I have trouble with my maths and I was glad to be put on the maths course along side the plumbing course and same as with you people were not turning up or being very late and rude when some of us wanted to learn. In the practical lessons we had a kid hit in the head with a 22mm pipe slice just before the summer break and the kid that threw it and the one that had been hit have both left the course due to being sacked and with a few more 16-20 year olds in line of being left behind so far that can not catch up or not willing to try and catch up. It's annoying as they are at the perfect age to get the most out of it and with the employers getting reduced labour costs and reduced course fees they should be trying to get into every course they can.

 

[Stigster]

None taken, I know people who have made comments about my generation before and they had been right and wrong.

But I was making a generalisation concerning some of the students I met at college.
I could have stated that this was based on personal experiences and not just something I read in the paper; for which I apologise for any offence caused.
It was like 16, 17, and maybe 18 year olds who behaving like they don't want to know.

Throwing bits of pipe, pens or anything else about the workshop; or sword fights with lengths of copper pipe 4 or 5 feet long.
Constantly on mobiles in class/workshop, no matter how many times told to put them away; going off topic, talking amongst themselves, making weird noises and no they did not have an involuntary response condition.
Going to class without course book, paper pad, pen or anything, then saying "I didn't know what we were doing I thought we were in workshop"; so why did they turn up in class at the same day and time as they have done for weeks.
Going to morning / lunch / afternoon break and not coming back for rest of the day because what they were doing was "boring".
All students were told how important maths are and a number of examples were given, including some of personal experience.
But they walk out of a class because they can't understand the tutor (neither could anyone), but she was writing everything down correctly, I followed it and learnt something (I have always had bad maths so took the opportunity offered), but it was to difficult for them.
Turning up for maths and there is no tutor, and instead of going to library and studying or finding a maths tutor and asking for some work they close blinds, turn off lights, use class PC and large screen and put a film on, after messing about and swearing; there were a number of students who were trying to study but ended up leaving that lesson.
There were teenage students on a health course who caused so much disruption in maths the tutor was regularly in tears and ended up leaving the college.

I made a complaint and the head of maths was telling me about the problems they are having.

From what I saw at college of those who were early twenties or younger (whose ages I could identify), there were some but not all who did not seem that interested, from my personal experience they were generally not interested.
Even the tutor stopped giving out homework because not many students were bothering to do it.

And I'm not saying where this college is.

I work in the community college as the workshop technician/teaching assistant/education dept. plumber and I recognise all of those behaviours you mention but the difference is that kind of thing only really happens in isolation, not as a general day to day thing. We still have the power to get rid of people like that. We do not get a chunk of money per student in our system and the college is not here to make a profit on this small island as it's not possible with out population demographic. The place is here to provide a community service.

I will say that when we get the schools links program students in it's usually a disappointment. Out of a group of ten we'll typically have 2 or 3 disruptive numpties (we fire them back to school) 2 or 3 who keep their heads down and get on but without really shining and then only 1 or 2 who you think "I'd take this lad on if I was employing."

The apprentices tend to be a whole lot better and genuinely try to make a go of it. They are the true volunteers so you'd hope they would be focused on the course.

Our best students are the mature students by far and are a pleasure to teach.

 

[Deleted member 25704]

I am surprised the op had difficulty employing an apprentice - on average there are 41 applications for every plumbing apprenticeship and in the last month I have seen the following stories:

1. Female plumbing apprentice beats off 200 to land apprenticeship
2. Construction boss suggests 100 apply for 2 plumbing apprenticeships​

Government want 3million apprentices because over-supplying the construction jobs market leads to a massive drop in wages - the strategy has worked!

If 80% of the population are on low wages then the economy runs itself because inflation stays low. The following examples show how the government are stitching plumbers up:

1. Government pays large employers to take more apprentices than they need which over-supplies the industry driving down wages
2. Unapprenticed career changers such as ex-services enter industry, which increases competition for work with existing apprentices
3. Foreign labour consume the jobs of apprentices and stifle progression
4. Colleges now buy houses to provide refurbishing work experience for students because there is no demand from construction industry for their trainees. Training full-time students in old houses creates a false demand, which means that thousands of construction trainees who qualify, will face 'a lack of demand' from construction industry on graduation, because there was no real demand to start with​

Whatever happens, the above points are supported by research and this means that the future in the construction industry is likely to be low-paid at craft level - this is the opposite of what government are telling young people!

 

[student plumber]

This is what it's like at my college now. Same as you I have trouble with my maths and I was glad to be put on the maths course along side the plumbing course and same as with you people were not turning up or being very late and rude when some of us wanted to learn. In the practical lessons we had a kid hit in the head with a 22mm pipe slice just before the summer break and the kid that threw it and the one that had been hit have both left the course due to being sacked and with a few more 16-20 year olds in line of being left behind so far that can not catch up or not willing to try and catch up. It's annoying as they are at the perfect age to get the most out of it and with the employers getting reduced labour costs and reduced course fees they should be trying to get into every course they can.

At least we didn't have anyone hit in the head, someone had some formed pipes thrown at them but nothing serious I believe.

Incidentally, if anyone is looking for guaranteed work and earn tens of thousands a year, maths tutors are in demand. [SIC] :19: Now where have heard that before.

I was told they regularly have meetings to discuss how things are in their county wide teaching units; the first question is "got any maths tutors and can you spare any".
We had 5 tutors over the year.

Like you said they are at the perfect age, what bugged me was they paid tuppence and I paid about four figures.
I'm still not sure if they really wanted to do plumbing or not.

 

[tamz]

I'm still not sure if they really wanted to do plumbing or not.

Probably not, so nothing much has changed over the years.
I certainly never planned on being a plumber. I just asked a man for a job and he gave me one.

 

[Mgrant]

Interesting thread, what hourly rate is seen at acceptable now for a fully qualified plumber? Saw a job in Manchester at the dizzy heights of £20 an hour. Guess this isn't standard for a plumber on the books?

 

[Deleted member 25704]

Interesting thread, what hourly rate is seen at acceptable now for a fully qualified plumber? Saw a job in Manchester at the dizzy heights of £20 an hour. Guess this isn't standard for a plumber on the books?

I have seen plumbing assessor jobs advertised at £14 per hour and the hourly rate for plumbers in the south west can be as low as £3.30 per hour for apprentices, to about £8 hour for qualified at level 2, and £9 newly qualified at level 3. Experienced workers could expect anything from £14 to £18 per hour - so £20 seems good deal at moment for Manchester. Lower rates in south west because it is beautiful to live here! Around 30 years ago I was earning well over 1k a week doing lead work! so wages have slumped significantly.

 

[Ric2013]

Someone newly qualified at level 2 won't have lead work - City and Guilds have removed it from the syllabus.

 

[Last Plumber]

No lead work ?
That's what a plumber is !

Worlds gone mad

 

[Last Plumber]

I suppose moles will be pleased !

 

[Stigster]

Someone newly qualified at level 2 won't have lead work - City and Guilds have removed it from the syllabus.

We're still teaching lead work as an add-on if an apprentice's employer asks. I was fortunate to still have lead on the old 6161 (even then I think the lecturers added that part on themselves) Level 2 and 3 I did a few years ago. Not that I have needed it much other than the lead slates on boiler flues but it's good to know how to work with if necessary in future.

Both the lecturers I work with have lots of experience working with lead and I can see they enjoy passing the skills on when they get asked.

 

[Mgrant]

I have seen plumbing assessor jobs advertised at £14 per hour and the hourly rate for plumbers in the south west can be as low as £3.30 per hour for apprentices, to about £8 hour for qualified at level 2, and £9 newly qualified at level 3. Experienced workers could expect anything from £14 to £18 per hour - so £20 seems good deal at moment for Manchester. Lower rates in south west because it is beautiful to live here! Around 30 years ago I was earning well over 1k a week doing lead work! so wages have slumped significantly.

Thanks is the slump in wages down to more plumbers in the system?

 

[rpm]

Thanks is the slump in wages down to more plumbers in the system?

Wages in general have stagnated across many sectors of the uk unless you are a director or board member of a large company in my opinion.

 

[NickDavies]

Just to chime in here....."do an apprenticeship" I was told "you will never be out of work" so I did .....4 years I was exploited for and then when the anniversary of my indentures were up they laid me off....."it's for your own good" they said "you can't be a boy one day and a tradesman the next in the eyes of the lads just because you have come out of your time"

I did get some very good block release technical training over those 4 years though, started my first year on 27 pence an hour, started my 2nd year on 35 pence an hour and for the first few years took home more in travelling time (distance money) fares and dirty money than actual wages.

And so the race to the bottom continues, 30,000 CITB "cro" cards a month over the last few years and many outsiders helping each other to get on their feet, undercutting everyone on prices, even themselves. try giving a business card to a concierge these days, it will end up in the Bin.

My Son? I advised him Not to entertain any thoughts of an apprenticeship as I would any young person these days, certain trades used to be viewed as "Professions" now they are merely occupations, I have seen 2 mobile plumbers jobs advertised recently with Zero hours contracts.

When I was a kid I was quite bright but a bit "Naive" and brought into the "get yourself an apprenticeship propaganda" but kids these days are not so naive and have every right not to be exploited on a building site.

There are grown men offering to work for free? to get experience, I've done it myself to get my gas safe hours signed off and little or no love shown from my fellow working class proletariat.

Everyone's in it for themselves these days and the love of money is the bottom line, you can't really blame young people for not wanting to toil like we did, I blame the elders for not sticking together, but I could be wrong

 

[wetdrip]

Can you move to Coventry and take on my son.
Nightmare here trying to find someone like yourself.

 

[Stanios]

I wouldn't do my apprenticeship again I think the format is wrong, too much is down to employers discretion - we had lads who worked one day a week for their dad, had those who swept floors for 5 days a week and a small minority who were actually taught and given appropriate jobs.
Its outdated, 4 years is too long of a period these days when everything else is fast track.

They need to reduce it down to 2 years, do two days in college a week with one full day in workshop plus make sure you arent working for a bricklayer and actually doing some plumbing at work. Also increase apprenticeship wage so employers feel like they need to teach the apprentice something usefull rather than just paying to tidy up tools for 20 quid a day.

 

[SimonG]

I would. Simpler days.

 

[wetdrip]

Or just carrying boilers upstairs and coring out.

 

[wetdrip]

NICKDAVIES
Great, honest post. The last paragraph is, in my opinion, one of the best, brutally honest posts I've seen on here. Well said that man.

 

[Stanios]

NICKDAVIES
Great, honest post. The last paragraph is, in my opinion, one of the best, brutally honest posts I've seen on here. Well said that man.

Thats just how I am, moany beyond my years

 

[NickDavies]

For real ...... but I'm just in the warm up phase......stay tuned : )

 

[chris watkins]

Our tutors have "unofficially" advised us against Apprenticeships
It's quicker and easier to get qualifed the college route.

They would say that wouldn't they !!

If I were you I would pay more attention to what the people on here have to say, they actually work & employ people in this industry not those who have left to work in a college.

 

[chris watkins]

I don't know how many times it has to be said "You can't learn to be a Plumber or get qualified by just attending a college"

The college & work experience sides should be undertaken at the same time, in the form of an apprenticeship, so that you see how the two go together (theory & practical).

Learning plumbing by working along side a tradesman has been normal practise for thousands of years why all of a sudden do people believe it can achieve differently ?

Trust an ex plumbing lecturer the modern teaching methods in no way shape or form make up for what you will, & need to learn on a site.

 

[A1P]

Are you at a local technical college or one of the Training Colleges with pretty hefty fees? As has been stressed on many similar posts the need for some sort of experience to get taken on can prove difficult and very disappointing for those with just paper qualifications.To employ someone they have not only to be worth their wages ,but actually make something for the employer on top.For most sole traders/small businesses it is too much of a mission even to take on an apprentice.It is a shame but all the rules and time investment can make it hard to justify on a business basis.You are saying that your qualification makes you a 'qualified plumbers mate.'I am trying not to smile.How could you earn me not only £360/400 per week but also a worthwhile profit on top.There are jobs out there for experienced ,qualified plumbers at £10/12 an hour. This post is not meant to be rude or mean,just realistic.

 

[A1P]

GaMo -Thank you for your calm and clear reply.That's how a discussion should be.
Firstly well done on using the Grants System.

Yes,colleges and C and G do claim it puts you at plumbers mate level.What this should also point out more forcibly is that NVQ's require employment to demonstrate a limited amount of practical skills making this difficult.Lots of posts on this.This in itself is not regarded as 'experience' as specified in advertised jobs.

I did check out Plumbers Mate vacancies and most state or assume experience in applicants.This brings us round to the old 'How can i get experience when it is so difficult to get a job?'

This leads back to the last point I made about how can an inexperienced person earn me money especially at plumbers mates rates?

I was forced to go self-employed with NVQ 2 and 3 and did my 'Gas'and it took me 8 years to build a business with a lot of help from family and friends.

 

[rpm]

That's the way to go because as an apprentice you'll earn £4-5 per hour, whereas as a plumbers mate you'll be looking at £9-10 per hour.

Where do you live, London? Some places are only paying £9-10 for skilled men.

 

[Rickster123]

Watford which isn't far from London
Plumbers here would earn between £14-£18 per hour.

Based on what? With all due respect you sound completely blinkered to the reality of the industry. What do you currently do workwise?

 

[Rickster123]

Based on what's being currently advertised
Go onto a jobsite and search plumbers in Watford
You'll see for yourself, it's not rocket science mate.

Half of those "jobs" don't exist. It's just to get your details on their database.
And wind your neck in or jog on. It's not rocket science.

 

[rpm]

Half of those "jobs" don't exist. It's just to get your details on their database.

Fact! Sister found this out.

 

[rpm]

Watford which isn't far from London
Plumbers here would earn between £14-£18 per hour.

Popcorn and drinks ready waiting for the replies from the members local to you however you seem to have your mind made up.