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Please help - have i been ripped off?

Discuss Please help - have i been ripped off? in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

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Hi. My house, in north London, has a Sime Superior 100 boiler. Last year I noticed the water pressure was slowly dropping (in all the taps, and the shower), so at the start of December I got a plumber out, who said we needed a new pressure valve for the boiler. I was told the new valve was about £200 ish, and I was charged £498 (inc vat) in total for the work. The plumber came out twice; firstly to diagnose the problem, which he did very quickly, and secondly to bring and fit the new part. I assumed the fitting was complex, but he fitted the part really quickly, in 30-45 minutes, or so. I thought the cost seemed excessive, especially when i saw how quickly it was fitted. Please could someone tell me if I've paid a far price, or if I've been ripped off?! Annoyingly, only a month later, the boiler has stopped working. So my second question is, can I make the plumber come back again and fix it? Thank you. Vic
 
Chris - I have found another plumber, this time recommended to me, but he's not available until Thursday this week. I'm meeting him at my property midday on Thursday.

The original plumbers did not advise on any existing faults, infact they haven't even given me any paperwork! Yesterday they were trying to tell me they also changed a boiler 'fan' in December, but today they say they didn't. The story keeps changing. I've requested a breakdown from them 3 times now.

I posted on here originally as I was concerned I'd been ripped off, and wanted some advise. Since then there's been some suggestion that the (overcharged) valve installed has been fitted wrongly, which is worrying! I've continued posting as I thought it would be wise to get a second opinion.
ok ...can you scan and post the invoices please on here I/we will look at them ..Rob Foster
aka centralheatking so maybe you paid...cash ! with no record
please advise
 
I did not pay cash! I paid by card, over the phone. I have a record on my bank statement of the payment made for £498 to the company. I requested the plumbers email me the paperwork on that day, including a breakdown, as I was shocked by the price, but they never did, and now they're saying they don't have any invoices because of a change of ownership of the business! Yesterday they agreed to email me a breakdown, but I'm still waiting for it. I think I could be waiting a long time! As for the next plumber, who I'm meeting on Thursday, happy to post his advice.
 
I did not pay cash! I paid by card, over the phone. I have a record on my bank statement of the payment made for £498 to the company. I requested the plumbers email me the paperwork on that day, including a breakdown, as I was shocked by the price, but they never did, and now they're saying they don't have any invoices because of a change of ownership of the business! Yesterday they agreed to email me a breakdown, but I'm still waiting for it. I think I could be waiting a long time! As for the next plumber, who I'm meeting on Thursday, happy to post his advice.

TBH, I do not understand why you are even entering into this type of discussion. It's both annoying and distracting so rise above it.

If you want chapter and verse about what is wrong and, most importantly, how to fix it just post what has been asked for please. We will then set you right with something you can action rather than pontificate about.

Sorry to be rude but I've not got time to waste. Your choice.
 
I did not pay cash! I paid by card, over the phone. I have a record on my bank statement of the payment made for £498 to the company. I requested the plumbers email me the paperwork on that day, including a breakdown, as I was shocked by the price, but they never did, and now they're saying they don't have any invoices because of a change of ownership of the business! Yesterday they agreed to email me a breakdown, but I'm still waiting for it. I think I could be waiting a long time! As for the next plumber, who I'm meeting on Thursday, happy to post his advice.
ok MissF... basically there is no paper trail on this one so far, no
recipts for the work carried out
and it might seem no records of whom helped you ...surely you took their GSF number and telephone etc ...centrakheatking
 
TBH, I do not understand why you are even entering into this type of discussion. It's both annoying and distracting so rise above it.

If you want chapter and verse about what is wrong and, most importantly, how to fix it just post what has been asked for please. We will then set you right with something you can action rather than pontificate about.

Sorry to be rude but I've not got time to waste. Your choice.
I agree YD. we are wasting our time in a wally ...I am out ...but will watch. chking
 
TBH, I do not understand why you are even entering into this type of discussion. It's both annoying and distracting so rise above it.

If you want chapter and verse about what is wrong and, most importantly, how to fix it just post what has been asked for please. We will then set you right with something you can action rather than pontificate about.

Sorry to be rude but I've not got time to waste. Your choice.
I agree YD. we are wasting our time in a wally ...I am out ...but will watch. chking
 
Thanks Yorkshire Dave. I've been trying to rise above it! Getting a little upset. I visited the house today just to take some better images of the pipework, and I've now asked Tom (tenant) to take an extra photo behind the red cylinder. I'll have to wait for him to get back to me.
 
FWIW, if the business has changed ownership then I would usually expect that the business still exists and its records, assets, and liabilities will pass on to the new owner. While I can understand that certain details might be lost, anything contractual and recent should still be there! Sounds like you are being fobbed off.

We've all been there. Recently my van got scraped while parked on my own drive and, at the same time, my fence was knocked over by a contractor working for Essex County Council. Despite plenty of forensic evidence, the police was uninterested and nothing got sorted. But I dealt with the problem: repaired the fence and van and got on with my life. I will raise the issue at a council meeting about how contractors should be selected more carefully, but in a way, it's good that I didn't make a claim on the contractor as my insurance did not go up. Similarly, I would suggest that if you have written to the company and had no proper reply, you concentrate on the current problem and worry about what you were charged another time when you're less annoyed.

If Dave and Rob are meeting at some point, then I would be interested in joining them if they are interested? PM me if there a small social and you want me there as I think you would both be interesting to meet.
 
Enough already. I want to get on with my life... :rolleyes:

So, let's look at the issue you posted where your water pressure was dropping so you had the repair for £500 carried out.

It is obvious that the 'control block' (the new part consisting of a pressure reducing valve and pressure relief valve) is new. Based on the fact that you've not had any maintenance carried out on your unvented cylinder to that point, it is quite likely that the filter inside the pressure reducing valve had become blocked leaving you with a much lower flow rate - which you would describe as a loss of 'pressure'. As it would be completely calcified (bunged up) the correct resolution was applied. That is, to fit a new control block.

Herein lies a problem. A non manufacturers part would cost no more than £50. Adding 25% is reasonable so a parts bill of £70.

IF it were a 'genuine' part (read further stitch up) from the manufacturer then it could well be double that. All in all tho, nowhere near £200.

As you are in London, the most expensive plumbers are Pimlico Heating. They charge £157 per hour. So, your maximum labour charge should have been approx £150. Again nowhere near the £300 you were charged.

Moving on. Your system is a mess. It needs urgently resolving in order to be both compliant and safe.

As a landlord, you have a legal obligation to have it appropriately serviced, but you also have a duty of care.

What you need, is an experienced G3 engineer to look at your system and to set it right. You will need a full service on it to make sure it is fit for purpose and working most efficiently. This will involve some pipework modifications to make it comply with regulations and to remove your neck from the noose should anything go wrong and it harm someone, or do damage to your home.

Insurers look for things like this in order to escape their moral responsibilities. If you had a water leak on the hot side, insurers may well ask to see the cylinders maintenance history. If you cannot provide it then they can, and do in my experience, simply walk away from the claim due to YOU not carrying out required maintenance.

The fact you simply did not know means nothing. It's entirely your responsibility to find out what you don't even know to ask about :rolleyes:

I strongly suspect that the engineer who turned up was NOT G3 qualified. Obviously I cannot know, so IMHO, it should form a line of enquiry from you to them as to the person attending's appropriateness of qualifications. The reason you have a right to know, is the poor state of the cylinder installation and its lack of servicing. Every G3 engineer I have ever met would have pointed out all of these things when there or reported post event simply to cover their backsides :) Further, the engineer should NOT have worked on it if unqualified.

It is NOT dangerous in the short term so do not panic.

It does however need fixing urgently and appropriate resolutions applied. Please make sure he/she checks the rating of the control block components even though they are new. They MUST be rated the same as original to comply with safety accreditations.

Overall, it's a bit of a bugger's muddle really. The good news is that you are now placed to both understand what was and to move forward with some considerable confidence.

You have now learned that as a landlord your head is in a noose continually. You really must both investigate and take seriously those various responsibilities but, unfortunately, agents also try to BS you by wittering on about aspects of things just to scare you - e.g. annual legionella assessments and deep cleans.

Anyway, I hope we have been able to help. When you return, as I know you'll not be able to keep away for our combined charms, you'll be a little wiser. Please update us. :)

Sorry it was so long :mad:
 
this type of incompetance by a landlord ..in my experience tends to be the tip of an iceberg,
have you a current landlords and tennants gas safe certificate ? ...show us...are all your smoke alarms ok ? if you are a bona fide landlord then you will have a current inventory produced by an estate agent ..
 
this type of incompetance by a landlord ..in my experience tends to be the tip of an iceberg,
have you a current landlords and tennants gas safe certificate ? ...show us...are all your smoke alarms ok ? if you are a bona fide landlord then you will have a current inventory produced by an estate agent ..

Perhaps, Rob, just perhaps this is not the tip of an iceberg but innocent ignorance. If you read through the posts, the lady says the only reason they moved out was because of a rotten neighbour - we all know that feeling! She also says, without prompting, that she still considers this her home. Perhaps, just perhaps, she is letting privately and has not bothered with parasitic agents who, let's face it add ziltch in any way shape or form and charge the Earth for adding so little. I could recount personal stories of straight up agent corruption here - but I won't. :rolleyes:

I totally get where you are coming from and, no doubt like you, have seen the penny pinching scumbag landlords fall flat on their faces - to our great amusement. :cool::cool:

Not all though are cut from the same cloth and some landlords, the only ones I ever worked for at least, are caring considerate people who deserve far more than the awful tenants often give them.

Perhaps, once again, we might at least wait till the head enters the noose before kicking away the steps :D
 
Hi. My house, in north London, has a Sime Superior 100 boiler. Last year I noticed the water pressure was slowly dropping (in all the taps, and the shower), so at the start of December I got a plumber out, who said we needed a new pressure valve for the boiler. I was told the new valve was about £200 ish, and I was charged £498 (inc vat) in total for the work. The plumber came out twice; firstly to diagnose the problem, which he did very quickly, and secondly to bring and fit the new part. I assumed the fitting was complex, but he fitted the part really quickly, in 30-45 minutes, or so. I thought the cost seemed excessive, especially when i saw how quickly it was fitted. Please could someone tell me if I've paid a far price, or if I've been ripped off?! Annoyingly, only a month later, the boiler has stopped working. So my second question is, can I make the plumber come back again and fix it? Thank you. Vic
In my humble opinion:. Callefi combination valve Screwfix 1610v £35 bit of pipework 20ish 2hrs Labour Cambridge rates £60 for first hour £40 for subsequent top price £200 yes I am G3 to satisfy drama queens!
 
As a householder who is following this thread with interest, am I correct in assuming that where the boiler heats an unvented cylinder the plumber should have a G3 certificate? This is not at all clear from Gas Safe site. Maybe it's there but how far am I supposed to drill down? Where does G3 start and stop?
 
G3 is NOTHING to do with Gas Safe. It is an entirely different qualification. They have no connection aside from them both being 'plumbing'.

The G3 regs start at the supply to the unvented cylinder and finish at two points: 1 - the safety discharge pipework and 2 - the hot water supply pipework.
 
oh dear, that prv looks like a honeywell do4 ...the best prv
on the European domestic market , it costs well less than £50.00, micky mouse ones cost
less than £10.00. I cannot remember the spec but I am not sure it should be vertically installed...but others will correct me.
Rob Foster aka centralheatking
The kink in that prv discharge won’t help either
 
Perhaps, Rob, just perhaps this is not the tip of an iceberg but innocent ignorance. If you read through the posts, the lady says the only reason they moved out was because of a rotten neighbour - we all know that feeling! She also says, without prompting, that she still considers this her home. Perhaps, just perhaps, she is letting privately and has not bothered with parasitic agents who, let's face it add ziltch in any way shape or form and charge the Earth for adding so little. I could recount personal stories of straight up agent corruption here - but I won't. :rolleyes:

I totally get where you are coming from and, no doubt like you, have seen the penny pinching scumbag landlords fall flat on their faces - to our great amusement. :cool::cool:

Not all though are cut from the same cloth and some landlords, the only ones I ever worked for at least, are caring considerate people who deserve far more than the awful tenants often give them.

Perhaps, once again, we might at least wait till the head enters the noose before kicking away the steps :D
My old school friend is a surveyer, with lots of work in the private rented sector. Over the past few years (after training) I cover his holidays and eg This week I will visit over a dozen properties. I have to be open minded for each visit. My cynicism is fuelled by high rents charged for a small minority of frankly diabolical rentals, 50/50 landlord and tennants responsibility I see some amateur landlords dabbling in what should be skilled areas trying to grab as much lolly as possible. The comparison between the corporate lets and properties which have professional management and skilled maintenance and the pathetic diy ones is both stunning and immoral, dangerous and verging on theft.
Occassionally I read posts on here which fall into this category. I do not hold back as you know. Rob Foster aka centralheatking
 
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Before you let any tradesman do work for you, get a full understanding of their charges (callout, hourly charge including any minimum charge) and if any parts need replacing have these clearly detailed in advance of paying anything. If that pic is the part you've had replaced, you've been ripped off.

A reputable plumber will be happy to provide the above information to you so you can make an informed choice but unfortunately though, some prey on the customers predicament.
 
G3 is NOTHING to do with Gas Safe. It is an entirely different qualification. They have no connection aside from them both being 'plumbing'.

The G3 regs start at the supply to the unvented cylinder and finish at two points: 1 - the safety discharge pipework and 2 - the hot water supply pipework.

Then what is the unvented that's on Gas Safe please?

Screen Shot 2019-01-20 at 10.39.47.png
 

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