Powerflush before boiler installation

[cazzish]

Hi all,

We're about to get ourselves a new boiler fitted (Worcester Greenstar 38CDi) and are aware that the system needs to be cleaned before the installation especially as our current boiler makes a lot of banging noises when heating hot water so its likely to be pretty dirty. The rads are generally heating up OK with only one having a cold bottom which we're going to replace before boiler installation anyway.

My question really is, I asked a local heating firm (BlueFlame in Bristol) to do a powerflush (as they advertise on their website). However they came round yesterday and ran the system for maybe 4 hours with powerflush chemicals and bigger magnetic filter than our magnaclean but no pump, just using the boiler to pump it round. I sent them an email last night asking for clarification and there response was "We use a magnetic filter system to flush through which uses the same chemicals. You get exactly the same results and it is kinder on the heating system." So now I don't know if I'm just being ripped off. Is this likely to be good enough for a new boiler warrantee. The only evidence I'll have from them is a receipt saying the system was flushed! They're charging £420 for 10 radiators (but not yet paid)

Any advice would be welcome!

Thanks

Caroline

 

[Riley]

Hello and welcome

I'm assuming the device they used was a magna cleanse or similar. These are pretty good tools to use on the system and aren't so aggressive in terms of pressure on pipe joints etc. without eyes on the system it's impossible for me to say if the system is clean enough for the new boiler install although I have had very good results using mine. If you have a receipt from the installers saying that the system is flushed to manufacturers standards then the liability will fall on them should anything go wrong warranty wise.

In short I would say no you are not being ripped off, many installers use these devices now to clean systems

 

[cazzish]

Thanks Riley,
The filter they were using looked like in the picture on their webpage. www.blueflameservice.co.uk/power-flushing-bristol not sure if it was exactly the same thing and could have been a different brand. It just annoys me that they quoted for one thing and did another without any sort of discussion or explanation!

Thanks

Caroline

 

[newcastle phill]

Have to say i disagree with above.
A powerflush has a high flow rate with low pressure.
Typically the pressure doesnt exceed 2 bar but with superior flow to a boiler pump what are tiny and not designed to clean a system - merely circulate clean heating water.

The fact a powerflush agitates the system with a reverse flow means a lot more cleaning takes place. I also add slight vibration to radiators to loosen built up deposits combined with a mag-clean.

So my opinion is that is you asked for a powerflush - you didnt recieve one.

When you think about it logically the reason it builds up and stops in radiators is because the standard pump hasnt the power to shift it.

 

[Riley]

Agreed Phill I suppose it does come down to the wording of the quote, however I know lots of guys that are getting a lot of success with the magnacleanse but I suppose if the system is filthy it's going to need more oomph however we can't see the state of the system water

 

[cazzish]

I specifically asked for a powerflush, so the response stating how much they charge should be for just that unless told otherwise IMO.

 

[Riley]

No problem if you're going down to the letter of the quote then yes you asked for a power flush. Whether it was necessary or not is an entirely different matter I think you need to discuss it with the manager of the installer

 

[Meady]

If you asked for a powerflush then no they haven't done as said. A magnaclense just catches what goes through it, you need to powerflush to clean the system of anything more stubborn.

 

[Riley]

Agreed but as we've said we don't know how stubborn the muck in the system is

 

[gassafe]

You received a magnacleanse...

It will remove circulating debris & probably better than many would have done on a boiler change. It is not a powerflush tho & I consider a charge of 420 pounds to be powerflush money!

For best results, a powerflush machine would be attached with the magnacleanse filters for best results. Although of you have an old microbore system sometimes it's best not to attach a powerflush machine as there's a higher chance of creating a leak!

 

[cazzish]

If this is the case, should I be renegotiating the price I pay as currently we haven't received an invoice or paid, what is a fair price for a magnacleanse for 10 rads (in Bristol)?

 

[tolly]

Did they shut down all the radiators and use the magnacleanse to flush one radiator at a time, or did they just connect the magnacleanse and run heating for 4 hours whilst looking busy and feeling cold spots on radiators?

 

[cazzish]

They shut down the radiators then opened each individually.

 

[Riley]

I totally understand what the other guys on here are saying. As I said in another thread a few days ago A lot of issues when dealing with contractors of any type is communication and terminology breakdown . Now I don't believe from the sound of it that the engineer has intentionally tried to rip you off but rather a miscommunication has occurred where he has not explained what a power flush is in his eyes . Heating systems do not always need a full on power flush and in some instances as people before said it is advisable not to for fear of causing damage. It sounds to me like this engineer has done quite a thorough job but has not explained himself properly in your eyes. I think you could quite legitimately go back and ask for a discount as what you asked for was not supplied however this still doesn't detract from the fact that your system might be suitably clean now for a boiler install. Which is ultimately what you are trying to achieve

 

[tolly]

That's a good start atleast, im not a massive fan of just magnacleansing though. You would have got just as good results running x800 cleaner in system for a week then draining down whilst still hot. Neither are a substitute for Powerflushing though if that's what you were quoted for, there may have been a reason they did not powerflush though, i.e microbore.

 

[Aquazone]

There has obviously been a breakdown in communication between the two parties, but there are 2 issues you have:

A Magnacleanse CAN clean a system to satisfy the manufacturer warranty, however if it's a really dirty system then it won't be enough, but only the engineer on site can be the judge really.

But you didn't get what you asked for (and paid for by my rates) and that is the real issue.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges, they are for different jobs.

When your digging a hole, sometimes you need a shovel, other times you need a mini digger....

 

[newcastle phill]

A spade is for digging ill have you know [emoji12]

 

[hammers4spanner]

That's a good start atleast, im not a massive fan of just magnacleansing though. You would have got just as good results running x800 cleaner in system for a week then draining down whilst still hot. Neither are a substitute for Powerflushing though if that's what you were quoted for, there may have been a reason they did not powerflush though, i.e microbore.

Totally disagree you would get nowhere near the same level of success with using x800 vs a magnacleanse.

 

[lame plumber]

best is a week of cleanser followed by magna cleanse with power flush, but thats just my opinion

 

[Nostrum]

If you follow the the Magnacleanse instructions, you drain the radiators and refill to half way. this increases the flow across the bottom rather than allowing water to go along the top of the radiator, effectively bypassing the dirt.

It makes a massive difference doing it like this, but I still wouldn't say its as effective as powerflushing on a really mucky system.

 

[gassafe]

My last firm used to put powerflush on every quote, the boss would never let us take the powerflush equipment tho as he said it wasted too much time!!! He got away with that a lot until the odd clued up customer would question it!!

 

[LPC]

I own a Magnacleanse and a powerflushing machine and I can tell you there is no comparison. A Magnacleanse alone is nowhere near as good as a proper powerflush.

 

[gassafe]

I own a Magnacleanse and a powerflushing machine and I can tell you there is no comparison. A Magnacleanse alone is nowhere near as good as a proper powerflush.

The only real way of telling would be to do a full magnacleanse of the system... And then to powerflush the system afterwards with magnets & see how much extra if any was caught! You could also do the Tds readings after each if we're getting technical !

 

[REDSAW]

so, there are 3 types of cleanse....
a chemical flush.
a powered high volume flush
or a powerfull magnetic,chemical electrical pump ciculated flush!!

the wording is the problem.

a high pressure,
chemical
or low pressure cleanse would be more clearer..just saying and questioning what the law would read

 

[rpm]

Powderflush?

 

[hammers4spanner]

Do any of you actually get to power flush many systems these days with all the competition around

 

[newcastle phill]

Powderflush
Yep stick a box of magrocol in with every flush
Clears even the most stubborn blockages [emoji15]

 

[cazzish]

We have opened up our magnafilter this evening, so the CH has been running for maybe a few hours at most we with that flush happening yesterday, and it was pretty filthy and so was the water. We cleaned it again and set the heating running for a few hours and had another look. The level was reduced but not by much. I would have thought if the system was cleaned properly for boiler installation this wouldn't be the case or am I bring naïve? Also the system is all 15mm pipes, not microbore.

 

[AWheating]

Even a powerflush won't clean every last bit out of a bad system and it's not uncommon to have some dregs left once flushed. Clean out your filter a few more times and it may clear.

What you paid for and what you got is different as a powerflush means the use of a machine to power the flush. A magnetic only flush can be good but does not get near a powerflush with a machine with a magnetic attached. A magnetic only flush won't remove non magnetic debris, it lacks the water flow rate to loosen debris and the ability to reverse the flow is also important.

Speak to the company about your concerns, they have not done as advertised, but also you should have made more effort to find out what you was getting. Compromise and part ways.

 

[cazzish]

We're in the process of renegotiating with the company so we'll see where that gets us!
In terms of communication, I'm not sure what else I could have done, I have a rather long email chain with them organising this and in every message the words power flush are mentioned somewhere, and as
they describe themselves as power flush specialists on their website, I would think they should know what I expected when I asked for a powerflush. There we're numerous opportunities for them to comment that a magnacleanse would be more suitable, but there was nothing of the sort to lead me to believe they would do anything other than what was quoted for.

I appreciate the comments with regards to the magnaclean We'll continue emptying it before our boiler is fitted next weekend, I just don't want to invalidate our warranty because it wasn't installed to the correct standards.

 

[cazzish]

Just as a quick update, we have raised our concerns and the company are going to come back next week and complete the job as a full powerflush. So hopefully we'll still get our new boiler fitted next Saturday! Can't wait as we currently have NO hot water and I'm bored of cold showers!
Thanks all for your advice.
Caroline

 

[PhoenixServices]

Is the same company who are doing the power flush installing the boiler? Because if it isn't I wouldn't even entertain doing it, I wouldn't fit a boiler to a system someone else cleaned.

 

[cazzish]

No it isn't, it is a friend (who is gasSafe registered and does installations as part of his day job) doing the installation. Unfortunately he doesn't have the powerflush equipment as it belongs to his employer and therefore we've needed to get someone else in to do the powerflush itself.

 

[PhoenixServices]

So long as he is happy with that and you don't get a blame train.

 

[SimonG]

Does your mates registration belong to his employer as well?