Radiator banging / clicking - possible reaction to F1 protector?

[TheGiantHogweed]

What make/output were/are the old/new boilers.

make/model of old/new circ pumps

Check that pump is pumping in the correct direction. (Towards either a mid position valve or towards two port valves)

Unfortunately, I know very little about our old boiler or pump, as I never really thought about it. I just know it was a Glow-worm. Don't know anything about our old pump.

Our new pump is the grundfos ups3. It first got installed at an angle, then when we first complained of a heating noise issue, plumbers said that was wrong and put it on its side.

Regarding the pumping in the right direction, I don't have much knowledge about this, so I will share a picture to show the set up here - if it helps. One from as close to the side as i can get, and one from above.

I rarely notice much noise coming from here though.


Our new boiler is the ideal LOGIC HEAT R18. I didn't realize that small sticker got put on it with the date that the F1 protector got added. This was on the 19th of October last year. I think I remembered wrong. So we will have just had this summer with no heating, which seemed to have settled all this generation of whatever gas it was, but the clicks and bangs are still just as bad.

Let me know any other information I can provide.


Thanks.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

No. Air tends to cause a 'trickling' sound. Occasionally a 'glugging' noise as a large bubble makes its way around the system.

Changing the boiler will have changed the operating temperatures of the pipes, the rate of change of those temperatures with time and the installer may have moved the ones near the boiler and/or anchored them more firmly at various points than they were previously cause the far ends to have to move more than previously to accommodate expansion / contraction.

Google 'central heating slip stick noise' or use the search box at the top right of the page. This is a common problem and the fix is a bit tedious but not difficult.

Our old heating system (same radiators and pipes, but old boiler) made what I would can a tinkling noise. Loads of really quiet ticks almost the entire time it was on. Could be heard in almost every radiator, but was extremely quiet and not annoying. Always stopped when it was off.

When there was a load of air / generated gas in the system, it sounded similar to the middle of the 3 links i posted. Bit of glugging and rattling like there were loose bits rolling around in the pipe. Although whatever the air was seems to have gone now, the other stuff likely will still be there I feel, as the system has not been drained since.

I will try and do more research. I did try to do a lot before posting here, but I'm bad at finding appropriate questions to find the results, and haven't yet found anything that seems to totally match the issue, and what can be done to solve it. Each time plumbers came round since the boiler installation, the sound seemed to change or get worse in this case.

 

[John.g]

Unfortunately, I know very little about our old boiler or pump, as I never really thought about it. I just know it was a Glow-worm. Don't know anything about our old pump.

Our new pump is the grundfos ups3. It first got installed at an angle, then when we first complained of a heating noise issue, plumbers said that was wrong and put it on its side.

Regarding the pumping in the right direction, I don't have much knowledge about this, so I will share a picture to show the set up here - if it helps. One from as close to the side as i can get, and one from above.

View attachment 65309

I rarely notice much noise coming from here though.


Our new boiler is the ideal LOGIC HEAT R18. I didn't realize that small sticker got put on it with the date that the F1 protector got added. This was on the 19th of October last year. I think I remembered wrong. So we will have just had this summer with no heating, which seemed to have settled all this generation of whatever gas it was, but the clicks and bangs are still just as bad.

Let me know any other information I can provide.


Thanks.

Can you feel the pipes under the boiler and feel with your hand which is the hotter of the two (flow/return) and either count them from the left or photo them to rule out any mess up there on installation.

If there is a small header tank in your attic (together with a bigger one) then you have a open vented system, these systems are prone to pulling in air and causing all sorts of problems especially if the pump setting is too high.
The UPS3 is a very powerful pump and even setting 2 constant curve can cause problems (even though you say that the air has gone).
Your are on constant curve II (one solid green+one solid yellow) suggest (especially if you have this open vented system) changing to either constant curve I (one solid green) or preferably CP1 which is one flashing green + one flashing yellow, second last right diagram and see how it goes.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Can you feel the pipes under the boiler and feel with your hand which is the hotter of the two (flow/return) and either count them from the left or photo them to rule out any mess up there on installation.

If there is a small header tank in your attic (together with a bigger one) then you have a open vented system, these systems are prone to pulling in air and causing all sorts of problems especially if the pump setting is too high.
The UPS3 is a very powerful pump and even setting 2 constant curve can cause problems (even though you say that the air has gone).
Your are on constant curve II (one solid green+one solid yellow) suggest (especially if you have this open vented system) changing to either constant curve I (one solid green) or preferably CP1 which is one flashing green + one flashing yellow, second last right diagram and see how it goes.
View attachment 65313

Thanks for this. When I first tried to take the image of the pump, a shadow was over the instructions. I pressed the button without knowing it had to be held for 3 seconds. I will try the other things you mention.

A lot of the things you mention are just things that I have to guess what they are. I have attached more pictures of related stuff that hopefully with give you some of the answers to the things you are asking.

This is above our boiler in the kitchen. Directly above is the pump under the bathroom, that I showed in my previous post.

This is under our boiler. Presumably the one on the left will be the main input for the water. The one on the right goes directly outside.

This is out airing cupboard tank. This got replaced at the same stage as our boiler. We used to get a lot more noise here, but it has been a lot quieter (and much more well insulated) than the old one.

This is above the water tank in our loft. I know very little about this. Have attached a picture of the label if it helps. We also have a large cold water tank near by it.

One time when we had the plumbers round after the install when we reported the airlocks and air trapped in the radiators (before the F1 protector went in) they believed that a valve near this tank was possibly a bit loose. Can't remember exactly, but they said they tightened it up, but it didn't seem to change anything.




When the heating is next on, I will try out changing the pump settings again.

 

[John.g]

Should have told you about pressing the pump setting button for 3secs to change modes.

That's great info there.

1. Just feel the two copper pipes on the boiler top and identify (left or right) the hotter of the two) best felt when boiler fires up after being off for awhile but doesn't really matter as long as you can differentiate.

1a. After identifying the above immediately feel the piping at the pump and see if its the same temperature as the hotter or the cooler boiler pipes.

2. What pressure is the pressure gauge showing.

3. Try and see where the pipe (after the red expansion vessel) connects into the system, you maybe able to feel the pipe into which it connects and determine if on the flow or return or if it connects into the boiler heating coil, whether its connected into the top or bottom coil piping.

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

Should have told you about pressing the pump setting button for 3secs to change modes.

That's great info there.

1. Just feel the two copper pipes on the boiler top and identify (left or right) the hotter of the two) best felt when boiler fires up after being off for awhile but doesn't really matter as long as you can differentiate.

1a. After identifying the above immediately feel the piping at the pump and see if its the same temperature as the hotter or the cooler boiler pipes.

2. What pressure is the pressure gauge showing.

3. Try and see where the pipe (after the red expansion vessel) connects into the system, you maybe able to feel the pipe into which it connects and determine if on the flow or return or if it connects into the boiler heating coil, whether its connected into the top or bottom coil piping.

As I should be at home when the heating comes on in the evening tomorrow, I will try to check the 2 pipes then. I have tried them now, some time after the heating has been on, and I really can't tell any difference. Both were just a bit too hot to touch or hold for more than a second.

I am not great at taking instructions or understanding things. If you could just confirm what the pressure gauge is, and if it is in any of my pictures. Is it in the picture by the water tank?

The pipe that the red expansion vessel (if that is what it is) seems to go down to the airing cupboard and into the tank. Then the pipe that comes out of there and splits, and goes back into the loft, and under the floorboards upstairs. I don't know enough about this stuff, but I did think this was more related to heating hot water for the tap water and shower, rather than the radiators.

 

[Deleted member 123817]

The pressure gauge is in the third photo, it is probably scaled 0 to 4 bar and the needle is indicating either close to 1 or close to 2 bar.

 

[Deleted member 123817]

Did you change the pump mode to CP1

 

[TheGiantHogweed]

I haven't changed anything just yet. The pump is hard to access as it it under a cork tile in the bathroom with several screws. When I next get a chance, I will try changing the mode.

The strange thing that makes me wonder how it can be related to the pump is that these clicking / banging sounds usually happen several times a night many hours after the heating goes off and well before it comes back on. Can it really still be pump related when the pump isn't active at this stage?

There are far more clicks when the heating is on, and while they sometimes emit the louder bangs, they tend to more often be the quieter ones, but still very annoying. I just don't know what can be causing the ones in the night as surly the pipes won't be having water shifted around in them so many hours after the heating is off. Unless it is related to the pump speed allowing being fast, so that is cools down faster, and then the pipes not contracting at the same speed they used to. But this seems strange to me. Very confusing!

The pressure gauge is in a bedroom that isn't mine, so will need to also check that another time.

 

[John.g]

Banging can be caused by piping heating/cooling, if circ pump head is very high the return temp will be very high and just may cause some of these problems so rule out the easy items first.

Also check boiler flow temperature and ensure not > 65C, some systems can get very noisy if flow temp approaches 70C.

The system pressure is also important and should be 1 to 1.5 when cold.

Anyway check what is available to you especially the boiler flow/return, this evening.

(Attached, picture of pressure gauge, to avoid any confusion.)