Radiator Gaskets Rusting on New Column Radiator

[Catherine1]

Hi All

I've just joined the forum as I'm looking for some guidance on a bit of a problem I've got.

Basically we had a new heating system put in (December 2014). At the time of the installation we had two brand new cast iron column radiators. To cut a long story short, one was installed at the time and due to ongoing work on the property the other one didn't end up being fitted until about 12 months ago. Anyway over the last few months we have noticed quite a bit of rusting around some of the radiator gaskets. Some of the joints have actually been leaking slightly, dripping rusty water onto the carpet etc.

We have spoken to the radiator supplier who says that the most likely cause of the rusting is because none or insufficient inhibitor was put in the system. Well the 'Commissioning Checklist' in the back of the Worcester Bosch boiler manual (filled in by our plumber) states that 0.5 litres of Sentinel Inhibitor was put in the system at the time of the original installation which according to the manufacturers guidelines should be enough to protect the 4 radiators in the property at that time, including the one that was yet to be fitted. What I don't know is whether the system would have been partially drained or not when they came back to install the second radiator? Obviously I don't want to raise this issue with the plumber until we know our rights and have our facts straight. If the system was drained should it go without saying that they should also top up the inhibitor as a matter of course afterwards, or is this something we should have specifically requested at the time? We have since bought a Sentinel X100 test kit which has confirmed that there is indeed insufficient inhibitor present.

The radiators are under a 10 year warranty but the suppliers are stating that in order to put them right we are to send them back and have them flushed and restored etc all at our own cost. Presumably as they believe that lack of inhibitor is the cause.

Where do we stand in terms of getting the problem put right. Is the plumber liable for the costs and any work that needs doing in order to rectify the problem? I would be very grateful for any advice.

Thanks in advance.

Catherine

 

[Chalked]

We're the radiators second hand and then re-powder coated ?
Sometimes with older cast radiators the refurb companies use an oven to remove the old paint. If the radiator had paper gaskets between the sections, the head destroys them. The powder coat will stop a leak for a while, but when heat is passed through the radiator, it expands and starts to leak.
This very rarely happens on rads with graphite gaskets.
I've yet to see a cast iron rad that has corroded through. They are trying to get out of their obligation.
Can you post a picture of the rad on here?

 

[SimonG]

Had something the same on a towel rail. Had to send a sample of water. Sample was ok so they supplied new towel rail and paid for my labour.

 

[Catherine1]

We're the radiators second hand and then re-powder coated ?
Sometimes with older cast radiators the refurb companies use an oven to remove the old paint. If the radiator had paper gaskets between the sections, the head destroys them. The powder coat will stop a leak for a while, but when heat is passed through the radiator, it expands and starts to leak.
This very rarely happens on rads with graphite gaskets.
I've yet to see a cast iron rad that has corroded through. They are trying to get out of their obligation.
Can you post a picture of the rad on here?

Hi Chalked. The rads were brand new sections built to order by the company. As you can see from the top picture the gasket appears to be a black plastic type material if that's familiar?

 

[Catherine1]

Had something the same on a towel rail. Had to send a sample of water. Sample was ok so they supplied new towel rail and paid for my labour.

Hi Simon. Thanks. Out of interest do you mean the customer had to pay the labour or did the towel rail supplier cover it?

 

[SimonG]

Myson paid for it. Shipped customer a new towel rail and he submitted my invoice and was reimbursed.

 

[Chalked]

Hi
Not sure of the material used between the sections. But that's not caused by lack if inhibitor. It needs replacing I'm afraid.
Have you sent them those pics?

 

[jonnyswamp]

I wouldn't be happy with those, or the manus reply
still removing sectional cast rads that are older than me (Victorian) that haven't seen any inhibitor in their life and still going strong
Are your rads original recoated or new, if new they're poor quality IMHO
EDIT just looked at photos again and they look new reproduction type, not brilliantly assembled

 

[Jay The Plumber]

^^ as above, agree with @jonnyswamp especially considering its only been in about a year.

 

[Catherine1]

Thanks guys, so lack of inhibitor is not really an issue then?... I put a couple of cast iron door keeps in seperate jars just to gauge the levels before doing a proper test. One with tap water and one using a bit of water that I drained out of the heating system. Although the heating water was noticeably better it still caused the cast iron to rust somewhat - see pic (RH jar has the inhibitor.)

Yes these are reproduction.

Yes these have been sent to the radiator supplier. This is copy of their reply:



"Further to your email, we are sorry & surprised that these issues have
occurred especially that one has only been in operation for 9 months or so &
the other for only a couple of years.

Looking at your pictures, it does appear that the issue with the gasket has
been present for a period of time from the amount of residue being shown,
which will have exacerbated the deterioration.

From our experience, there are only three causes to result in such a
degradation of the gaskets:
1. Use of INSUFFICIENT INHIBITOR USED for total water content of
the sealed system
2. Use of CAUSTIC/ACIDIC flushing agents, which have not been
fully neutralised in the system
3. Use of aggressive DE-SCALING agents in the heating system.

Due to the length of time since the radiators have been fitted the most
likely cause would be no: 1. - Insufficient inhibitor in the central heating
system, which from our experience & looking your pictures appears to be the
case in this situation. Reasons for this could be insufficient amounts used
at installation as not dosed correctly for the volume of water used or
inhibitor not being replaced in the system when it has been drained for
maintenance, decorating etc.

An appropriate amount of inhibitor should have been used as standard
practice when installing any system & maintained at the appropriate level at
all times to prevent the corrosive effects of the various metallic
components, copper, brass, iron, steel; aluminium which when combined with
untreated/contaminated water can lead to electrolytic action. This process
is more aggressive when the system is heated. You cannot put too much
inhibitor in your system, but commonly, due the added capacity of water each
radiator holds compared to a modern pressed steel radiator, often systems
are under-dosed considerably.
If a system looses water over a period of time & is simply topped up at
intervals, this will again dilute the inhibitor concentration in the system
leading to the water becoming aggressive.

Corrosion then results from two dissimilar metals in contact with each other
in the presence of an electrolyte such as water, which contaminates the
water. This subsequently attacks the rubber/silicone diaphragms, gaskets &
seals in the heating system forcing them to breakdown.

If this is the case, then the only way we can be certain to correct the
issue is to replace the radiators completely with brand new tested
replacement radiators & get the affected radiators returned to us to be
stripped down, cleaned, re-built, tested & primed to be put back into stock.
The new radiators would come with a new 10 year warranty as per our post
sales conditions shown at time of purchase and on our website.

If in agreement, we would then arrange for a replacement radiator to be
prepared once we know what size it is. When ready we would contact you to
arrange a convenient day when these radiators can be delivered & the
returning radiators collected at the same, time or we can arrange to collect
the radiators a few days later of that helps.

The returning radiator(s) will need to be palleted & secured on collection
at kerb side or nearest hard standing.

If this were the course of action to take, then we would use the following
costing schedule:

Refurb cost per radiator returned = £35.00 + vat. This in effect goes a
little way to cover our costs to completely strip down the returning
radiator(s), clean, re-build & re-prime back to stock.

The transport cost for the delivery & collection will be £45.00 + vat each
way.

We will need you to confirm the sizes, styles & colour of each radiator
affected before we can proceed.

Hope this helps & we will wait to hear from you if you agree for us to start
the process of preparing the new radiators."

 

[rpm]

Can`t comment on the rads but that PTFE tape in the picture showing the bleed screw is shocking.

 

[Welder]

When you say you had a 'new heating system put in', exactly what was new and what was kept (if anything)?

In my opinion no rad should leak at the joins like they are. That isn't an inhibitor issue but much more to do with expansion of the rad during operation opening up joints; inhibitor would have zero impact on that unless the water turned so corrosive that it destroyed the seal between sections. Frankly I'd have more chance of dating Kate Middleton than that...

 

[king of pipes]

Take the hit bud what ever else you do its gonna cost you let them replace both them you then have a 10year warranty on the new ones, get your installer to put a breakdown of what he did on your invoice make sure it includes a system hot flush , then cold flush , and then refill and dose with inhibitor 2 litres. Of sentinal x100 should cover you then for future problems cheers kop .

 

[Paulplumb]

To be fair I don't think you've got much come back with the plumber or manufacturer of the radiators. You could end up in an endless loop trying to get things resolved. King of Pipes has got it spot on. Top advice mate.

 

[Catherine1]

When you say you had a 'new heating system put in', exactly what was new and what was kept (if anything)?

In my opinion no rad should leak at the joins like they are. That isn't an inhibitor issue but much more to do with expansion of the rad during operation opening up joints; inhibitor would have zero impact on that unless the water turned so corrosive that it destroyed the seal between sections. Frankly I'd have more chance of dating Kate Middleton than that...

The boiler was brand new and a lot of the pipework was new and redone. Some of the pipework was installed before a while before we moved in so were a couple of the radiators although they were not that old they were more modern style ones if that helps.

 

[Catherine1]

Take the hit bud what ever else you do its gonna cost you let them replace both them you then have a 10year warranty on the new ones, get your installer to put a breakdown of what he did on your invoice make sure it includes a system hot flush , then cold flush , and then refill and dose with inhibitor 2 litres. Of sentinal x100 should cover you then for future problems cheers kop .

Thanks for the advice. To be fair I've lost a bit of confidence in the quality of these radiators. It was mentioned by a couple of people that with the sections being Chinese imports they were inferior to some of the more noted British brands i.e. Carron etc. Would you chance these for a second time or go for a different brand altogether?

 

[student plumber]

One double panel radiator count as two singles.
And looking at those they need more than one half litre bottle of inhibitor in there.
That said, I wouldn't have thought a lack of inhibitor would cause that.

It could turn into a merry-go-round between installer and manufacturer and you might loose out?

 

[Last Plumber]

In my opinion those leaks are nothing to do with installation or lack of inhibitors.
I would be asking the manufacturers to replace the radiators and cover the labour costs.

Read this.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enacted

 

[gassafe]

0.5 litres of inhibitor... someone was counting the pennies

I think the manufacterer is using that as a get out clause too, it's just not been put together very well & they need to replace

 

[Last Plumber]

Just an additional note after reading the MF 's letter
I'm sure you can overdose with inhibitors.
I've come across a few problems because of that in the past.

 

[Catherine1]

0.5 litres of inhibitor... someone was counting the pennies

I think the manufacterer is using that as a get out clause too, it's just not been put together very well & they need to replace

I've not been in touch with the manufacturer since my original email to them as I'm trying to research my rights an options before taking action. They don't know about the lack of inhibitor at this stage that is just their presumption. They are right though!

 

[Last Plumber]

HERE is some legislation.

 

[REDSAW]

the chinease manufacture stamp in the pic would of put me off in the first place from buying them!

 

[woodsy]

Poor quality product in my opinion and the amount of inhibitor shouldn't be critical to that degree as inhibitor will degrade over time and you'll be constantly trying to top it up. As said , I've come across problems with systems with too much inhibitor causing boiler divertors etc to fail.

 

[king of pipes]

No bud all will be ok 2 litres of inhibitor is fine , you really have no choice no one will touch the existing ones get them swapped pay what you need to then take legal advice if you feel unfairly treated but honestly i think you will struggle cause yourself more grief your choice though . regards kop

 

[Catherine1]

I did an anonymous call to the supplier today to make a few enquiries. They said the gaskets are silicone (The Carron ones are also silicone or graphite depending n the model). They also said the recommend Fernox Power Flush and Fernox inhibitor in the system and the water must be PH neutral as they will not withstand anything acidic.

I need some pipework altering in the kitchen soon so will probably send the rads back and get it all redone at the same time.

 

[Chalked]

Inhibitors make the water alkaline. So they can't get out of that one.