Discuss S-Plan Central Heating Installation Question in the USA Plumbers Advice area at PlumbersForums.net

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I'm just putting this out here in case I am missing something.

Can anyone think of a valid reason why a plumber would install a completely new S-Plan CH installation (apart from the boiler)
but NOT install the necessary electrical control system to to allow the CH and HW to be turned on and off independently.
A digital timer has been fitted but all it does is turn everything on and off in line with its programmed schedule.
I am looking for a valid reason why the installer would make that decision.

I will keep it short and leave it at that. If you want more information let me know.

Any thoughts?

Thanks
 
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If this was a straightforward domestic installation, and your description is accurate, the system doesn't comply with Building Regulations. Broadly speaking, the CH zone needs to be controlled by its own thermostat and programmer.

Of course, it does depend on what you asked the installer to do and what it said on they'd do on their quote. If you said you wanted 'just the plumbing' done and would get someone else to install a smart control system, like Nest, then you're looking at an incomplete system that needs to have the controls fitted.
 
If this was a straightforward domestic installation, and your description is accurate, the system doesn't comply with Building Regulations. Broadly speaking, the CH zone needs to be controlled by its own thermostat and programmer.

Of course, it does depend on what you asked the installer to do and what it said on they'd do on their quote. If you said you wanted 'just the plumbing' done and would get someone else to install a smart control system, like Nest, then you're looking at an incomplete system that needs to have the controls fitted.
But you can't think of any technical reason why a complete S-Plan system couldn't be controlled as intended?

I have examined the installation in depth and I am about to recommend that the current timer be replaced with a control unit that provides the CH/HW control required to take advantage of the S-Plan installation as well as the timing functionality that currently in place. This will also require the system to be rewired in accordance with a typical wiring layout for an S-Plan installation. This will need an EIC when completed so it will be installed by a registered electrician.

It's just that I have this nagging curiosity as to why the original installer didn't go down this path when they installed the system which was about 2 years ago. It seems to me to be the sensible thing to do and makes me wonder what, if anything, I am missing.



.
 
But you can't think of any technical reason why a complete S-Plan system couldn't be controlled as intended?
Nope, AFAIK there isn't one. The essential purpose of an S-plan configuration is to allow independent control of CH and DHW.

It's just that I have this nagging curiosity as to why the original installer didn't go down this path
I am also a fan of the "Chesterton's fence" approach to strange things. In this case, however, the explanation is probably fairly banal. E.g. the installer needed to test the system so did something 'temporary' and forgot to finish the job.
 
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Is it s plan and not hw priority?

Who wired it ?
 
Nope, AFAIK there isn't one. The essential purpose of an S-plan configuration is to allow independent control of CH and DHW.


I am also a fan of the "Chesterton's fence" approach to strange things. In this case, however, the explanation is probably fairly banal. E.g. the installer needed to test the system so did something 'temporary' and forgot to finish the job.
An interesting idea.

I'm not exactly sure whether the wiring was done by the plumber of by someone else.
The quality of the plumbing works suggests someone with high standards in my opinion.
The same can't be said for the electrical work.
I would be surprised if it were the same person
Swapping out this crap for a purpose build junction box is also on the job sheet.
 

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Yep standard s plan

What control / prog do you have ?
 
Maybe the installer bought a single channel controller by mistake and hoped you wouldn't notice

Where is the controller versus the wiring centre and more importantly how many cores does the cable have that connects them?
 
Yep standard s plan

What control / prog do you have ?
I'll be replacing BOSS Therm BUT2 timer with BOSS Universal TPSE201.
Also replacing the existing tatty junction box with a Honeywell.
Then it's a matter of rewiring.
 

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Maybe the installer bought a single channel controller by mistake and hoped you wouldn't notice

Where is the controller versus the wiring centre and more importantly how many cores does the cable have that connects them?
I haven't pulled the wiring center apart but looks mostly twin and earth flex. It's not currently wired for S-Plan configuration.
 

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That’s a single channel clock
 
I haven't pulled the wiring center apart but looks mostly twin and earth flex. It's not currently wired for S-Plan configuration.
My guess, based on the components visible in the picture, is that the original intention was to have the CH controlled by the wireless receiver with a remote smart thermostat (i.e. thermostat and programmer combined) acting as the sender somewhere else in the house. The single channel programmer should have been wired to to control just the DHW.

If I'm right, all that's happened is whoever wired the wiring centre made a mistake and didn't check/test their work carefully enough. Depressingly common these days...

Is this the same system you asked about roughly a year ago?

 
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My guess, based on the components visible in the picture, is that the original intention was to have the CH controlled by the wireless receiver with a remote smart thermostat (i.e. thermostat and programmer combined) acting as the sender somewhere else in the house. The single channel programmer should have been wired to to control just the DHW.

If I'm right, all that's happened is whoever wired the wiring centre made a mistake and didn't check/test their work carefully enough. Depressingly common these days...

Is this the same system you asked about roughly a year ago?


Yes. Exactly. It's a loooooong story that I won't go into in full depth.

But this tale might be of use to others who come here so I will document the problem.

I will be as brief as I can be.

The complaint can be summed up by the phrase : The CH seems to be doing what it likes. Coming on even when the timer has it switched off.

I initially suspected a wifi RF frequency conflict and altered the dip switches and that seemed to make a difference according to the owner.

But just recently, end of summer, she complained about the amount of oil being consumed even in the summer. She also complained about the heating coming on in the middle of the night which was annoying for two reasons i) too hot in bed and ii) the noise from the boiler which is located below her bedroom.

So I decide to do a full survey of the system.

First thing that revealed is that the room thermostat receiver and the timer are connected to the installation in parallel so they are capable of making independent demands on the boiler for heat. The owner was expecting the timer to be in total control of the boiler ie: when the timer is OFF, in accordance with the program settings, the boiler was OFF and when the timer ON the boiler ON.

I had verified that the timer was working as it should during the previous intervention btw.

The owner's perception or expectation is not unreasonable by any means from a consumer's perspective. It makes sense.

What she had discovered by trial and error was that turning the room stat to ECON mode turned off the boiler. She didn't understand why but she became accustomed to using that as an ON/OFF switch so to speak.

That still didn't completely eliminate the problem of the boiler coming on at night. And it got worse as summer turned to autumn and so on.

But once you understand this independence between the timer and the room tstat you realise that the equipment is not at fault and it is just doing what it is supposed to do.

In ECON mode the default room temp setting is 10C. So the reason the boiler was coming on at night, even in ECON mode, is because the room temp was falling below 10C.

Now there is an ANTI-FROST mode on the tstat unit that has a default of 5C. Had she happened upon that as her ON/OFF choice that would no doubt have stopped the overnight boiler requests.

That's the way she has been manging the CH for almost a year.

The upshot of this is that the way the controls were at the point, due to the parrallel wiring, the room tstat is in charge as it overules the timer settings.

So what I decided to do was to replace the room tstat, which was only controlled by temperature, with a programmable one that controls room temperature on a time line.

This is what I did and it. Replaced BOSS TPSRF31 with BOSS TPSRF51.

The TPSRF51 works by letting you control the room temperature on a time line. The temperature range is 5C to 30C so
setting the temperature to 5C for a period of time is tantamount to switching it off. If the room temperature happens to fall below 5C during that time it's probably not a bad idea to turn the heating on. So it makes sense.

In order to test the new room stat I switched the timer to MANUAL OFF ie permanently off, and just observed over 24 hours.

The new room stat worked fine with the boiler coming on and off according to the new tstat time schedule.

It was next day that revealed the HW wasn't working.

So I dug deeper and determine the CH is S-Plan, looked at the programming capabilities of the existing timer, looked at the wiring of the rest of the equipment and reached the conclusion documented above.

As I said earlier I was a little bewildered as to why it wasn't installed as an S-Plan installation initially.

That lead me to the forum to see if anyone could point to something I was missing.

But now I know what's going on the above changes should bring it to normalcy.

Having said that the owner will still need to understand that in the summer the room tstat will still need to be switched to OFF mode in order to have just HW.
 
Having said that the owner will still need to understand that in the summer the room tstat will still need to be switched to OFF mode in order to have just HW.

Not sure I agree with this.

If you install a 2 channel programmer and make sure its wired correctly then your statement isn't relevant.

Or have I missed something?
 
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