S-Plan Central Heating Installation Question

[RayPooley]

Not sure I agree with this.

If you install a 2 channel programmer and make sure its wired correctly then your statement isn't relevant.

Or have I missed something?

Not sure myself to be honest.

But here's my rationale.

I have looked at the S-Plan wiring diagram and timer and RF receiver are still wired in parallel so they will still be able to operate independent of each other.

You can't actually wire them in series because they are both rated 240 VAC and you only have 240 VAC available.

If they were in series you could consider the timer to be in overall control because there are four permutations for two switches only one of which (ON + ON) allows current to flow. So when the timer is off everything is off. This has been the basic perception of the owner, not unreasonably, until I explained it to her.

When they are parallel the RF receiver can override the timer as it does at the moment.

If you remove the RF receiver from the picture, and just have the new timer, you can switch the HW and CH on and off independently with the new timer unit. CH only, HW only, CH + HW or neither.

But regardless of which state the timer is in when you bring the RF receiver back into play it can request heat from the boiler
independently and switch it on. As it does at present. Irrespective of the timer status.

So the way I envisage it going when the new timer is fitted is to leave the CH permanently off on the new timer ie: HW only and using the programmable RF receiver to control the CH status all year round switching it off in summer.

That's the plan at least. I will monitor it as usual and see how if it behaves as I anticipate.

This is unlikely to happen until summer.

At the moment, weather being what it is, both CH and HW are in demand and if anything goes wrong it might as well be
in summer when you don't need CH.

 

[Murdoch]

Not sure myself to be honest.

So best find somebody competent because having ch and hw seperate is the whole point of the S plan - when wired properly with the correct components

I thought this was your home, not a customers!

 

[RayPooley]

So best find somebody competent because having ch and hw seperate is the whole point of the S plan - when wired properly with the correct components

I thought this was your home, not a customers!

Exactly what part of what I have posted on here leads you to conclude I am incompetent? Be specific.

 

[Murdoch]

Exactly what part of what I have posted on here leads you to conclude I am incompetent? Be specific.

Based on the way you worded your last post and as your profile is private I have no idea who, or what you are, and what you do for a living?

Please don't take this the wrong way but little in this thread has suggested you are competent at wiring central heating systems

 

[RayPooley]

Based on the way you worded your last post and as your profile is private I have no idea who, or what you are, and what you do for a living?

Please don't take this the wrong way but little in this thread has suggested you are competent at wiring central heating systems

Going back to comment #3, if you had bothered to read it, you will see that I wrote :

"This will need an EIC when completed so it will be installed by a registered electrician."

Because this isn't actually a plumbing issue it's an electrical issue. An electrical issue that just happens to involve
an electrical system installed alongside a plumbing system.

Are you a plumber or an electrician? I'm a mechanical and electrical engineer.

So let's see what we have here .

It's clear from what I have written here so far, to anyone reasonably informed that is, that I am competent enough
to conduct a technical survey of both the plumbing installation and the electrical control installation of this site,
accurately determine the type of CH installation (S-Plan), the electrical control requirements and the fact that the latter is not
up to the necessary standards required for the control of an S-Plan installation. In addition to that I have put forward a solution to remedy the current electrical control system shortfalls and bring it in line with Building Regulation Part L for the minimum standards for the control of heating systems specifically with regards to the hot water circuit.

If you wish to offer alternatives to what I have presented her go ahead.

But don't call me incompetent.

BTW, I could do this job myself and get a registered electrician to issue the EIC after the job completed.
That's an option.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Doesn’t need a eicr for heating wiring aslong as there’s a fcu already installed if there’s not at best a minor works cert is filled in

Have you noticed the part g fault with the system?

Also atm it still complies with part l eg independent control of each system timer for the hot water and wireless prog room stat for the heating

 

[RayPooley]

Doesn’t need a eicr for heating wiring aslong as there’s a fcu already installed if there’s not at best a minor works cert is filled in

Have you noticed the part g fault with the system?

Also atm it still complies with part l eg independent control of each system timer for the hot water and wireless prog room stat for the heating

I understand that under Building Regs Part P a rewiring of a CH system, which this involves, is considered a new wiring for the purposes of the regulations and will need to be covered by an Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC). You can do the job yourself but in order to comply with the regulation you will need to call in an electrician to inspect the installation and issue an EIC which you should keep with your most recent EICR. One could, of course, ignore the regulations entirely but that's not an alternative in my opinion.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

No your statement is wrong

 

[Murdoch]

Going back to comment #3, if you had bothered to read it, you will see that I wrote :

"This will need an EIC when completed so it will be installed by a registered electrician."

Because this isn't actually a plumbing issue it's an electrical issue. An electrical issue that just happens to involve
an electrical system installed alongside a plumbing system.

Are you a plumber or an electrician? I'm a mechanical and electrical engineer.

So let's see what we have here .

It's clear from what I have written here so far, to anyone reasonably informed that is, that I am competent enough
to conduct a technical survey of both the plumbing installation and the electrical control installation of this site,
accurately determine the type of CH installation (S-Plan), the electrical control requirements and the fact that the latter is not
up to the necessary standards required for the control of an S-Plan installation. In addition to that I have put forward a solution to remedy the current electrical control system shortfalls and bring it in line with Building Regulation Part L for the minimum standards for the control of heating systems specifically with regards to the hot water circuit.

If you wish to offer alternatives to what I have presented her go ahead.

But don't call me incompetent.

BTW, I could do this job myself and get a registered electrician to issue the EIC after the job completed.
That's an option.

everybody who hides their profile has something to hide

you still very clearly don’t understand central heating wiring and also an EIC isn’t required

and if you look at my profile / badge it’s clear what I am too

 

[RayPooley]

No your statement is wrong

I did look it up a couple of days ago. I will see if I can find the item on the internet. I never thought to bookmark it. It comes under notifiable changes relating to water heaters and boilers.

 

[Gasmk1]

so long as rewire is from fused spur then no not req

 

[SimonG]

To op and wrt response to Murdoch.

You talk of issues with your system.

You talk of customer.

You talk of diving into the wiring centre.

You talk and make incorrect statements.

For the safety of yourself and others then please use a competent person to complete the works.

 

[Murdoch]

Also , about the existing wiring, every cable on a 230v system should have an earth (cpc) and I see that some of the cores are over sleeved as live - this isn't good either.

Just because the cable is running to a class 2 piece of equipment, doesn't mean you can omit the earth (cpc) as it must be connected at the supply end

 

[RayPooley]

On the subject of EIC requirement for this job.

In 2012 an impact assessment was conducted into the effect of reducing the number of circumstances where electrical works on domestic dwellings were deemed notifiable.

I presume the reason for this assessment was to reduce backlog and future work load on local authority building control departments of applications because the numbers were huge and burdensome.

Included in that assessment was the recommendation that 100% of works involving heating control systems be excluded.

In the subsequent approved 2013 revision of the Part P regulations there is no specific reference to heating control systems.

What you will find is a section "Changes to Part P 2013".

Notifiable works includes "The installation of a new circuit".

To give an example, if you tear out the entire electrical installation of a dwelling with view to installing a new installation that would be deemed a rewiring of the dwelling and would therefore be notifiable and you would expect an installer to produce a EICR on completion.

In the case that I present here the installer will be completely removing an old electrical circuit, including equipment, and installing new equipment and a new electrical circuit that is completely different in it's layout to the old circuit.

A new circuit. A rewiring but on a smaller scale.

Since Part P specifically states that "The installation of a new circuit" is notifiable I would expect that to imply an EIC when the job is completed. Otherwise what's the point? The purpose of these rules is accountability.

I do realize, of course, that a lot hangs on the interpretation of the word "new" in this part of the regulations. But I don't think any reasonable person would consider this a reference to function rather than form. If that were the case you could apply the same argument to the rewiring of a dwelling and subsequently conclude that notification was unnecessary. And you would be wrong in that conclusion.

So, an EIC will be required from the installer when the job is competed.

 

[SimonG]

God loves a tryer, but still wrong and to draw a comparison between rewiring a house and heating controls is laughable.