Discuss System or Combi in local pub? in the Central Heating Forum area at PlumbersForums.net

Messages
68
23 rads and one kitchen hot water supply plus two basins in toilets. Had an old Concorde system boiler which gave up.
Two zones supplying two large rooms 50' x 12' x 24' each. Local heating company recommended Nevien 42kw combi
boiler and things went wrong after that.
The installers have made excuses that the building needs the radiators, which worked fine before, at a cost of £1400
or they would disown the installation with much chattering of balancing the system etc. I have done that and vented a
number of times. ( I am an old fart who has worked and maintained many systems, but not the gas.) My problem boilers
were Worcester Bosch. I learnt to replace PCB parts at 30p from Maplins instead of paying £120 for a new board.
The boiler keeps blowing seals and is not happy with the system pressure.
Landlord was advised to install another pump as the heating took four hours to circulate to the lover zone radiators but
not to the extremities. The boiler has to lift the supply to the roof space and is a 40mm pipe work.
Its a mess and the Publican has lost customers owing to the lack of heating.
He has appealed to Nevien who have been helpful and initially said that the 42kw boiler will cope with the system.
They have since changed their position after their engineer changed the seals and said a system boiler was the best fit.
The original tank is still in place.
Nevien seem to be putting pressure on the local installers to sort things out but they are pratting around and making as many excuses
possible to avoid the issue.
Could you please advise me regarding the room volumes if a combi boiler should provide the heating system?
 
:D heat load / capacity might be ok but too small of a pump and expansion vessel normally they have 10l onboard yours requires a min of 14 extra Litre’s of expansion eg 18l expansion vessel hence the problem with pressure and things going pop

25-80 pump required as the boilers own pump won’t have the capacity
 
You need a commercial heating engineer to assess it properly in my opinion. There are a number of things that need looking at in order to decide what might be a suitable boiler.
The 23 rads could be any size and so could the pipework so you can't tell anything off that.
The building may be under 42 Kw but is that the heating output or output to hot water?
 
It’s hard to gauge a rooms heat loss knowing only the area. Yes a combi boiler sized correctly can happily heat your heating system, although by the sounds of it the system needs hydronically separating and having an additional pump.
My concern when considering what type of boiler to use know would be what’s your hot water demand like? A combi boiler supplies hot water to taps etc or energy to the heating system, not both at the same time. If your kitchen and basins are in constant/near constant use of hot water then I wouldn’t suggest a combi.
 
Thanks to you both for the replies. The additional pump is the higher output 25/80 and has improved the circulation slightly but still taking a number of boiler hours to get warm water to 15 out of the 23 rads. the amount of domestic hot water is very little with no shower or bath, just two vanity basins and one kitchen tap. 95% of demand is the heating system.
 
What does the boiler do with heating on temp wise stat around 40dc and rise slowly or straight to 60dc ?

Also the old boiler cxa?
 
Your main issue is every time someone runs a tap, it'll switch the heating off then cycle for maybe 1-2 minutes. In a place like a pub it'll be being fired on HW every few minutes, so it'll never run on heating when needed.

Also agree regarding extra expansion and bigger pump. In all it's the wrong boiler though.
 
Navien made contact today and stated it is the wrong installation and that the system
boiler is the desired spec. The original system tank is still there. The publican is prepared
to spend money to go for a system boiler replacement but is awaiting to hear from the
installers if they will take responsibility for the wrong installation of a combi to replace
a system boiler as what it was.
 
The boiler takes at least four hours to heat the radiators but will only get warm with
the large rads nearest the boiler. The rads at the end of the zone remain cold and it is
not an issue of balancing or venting. Yes a 25/80 additional pump was installed and
improved things but not solved the problem.
Does anyone have a calculator to determine what KW is needed for the volume of the
rooms in question please?
 
Size of rads is the easiest way but a Heatloss of the property is the correct and only guarantee way
 
The only sure fire way is as Shaun mentioned above, a proper survey of the property and calculate an accurate heat loss. There are quick cheat sheets available but they are only a guesstimate at best.
I appreciate you’re waiting to hear from the installer to see if they take responsibility and you are correct in doing so but I wouldn’t employ them to carry out the remedial work. The residual pump head of the pump is obviously not enough to reach the system extremities. An additional pump is and has been fitted but the system needs to be hydronically separated as well due to this additional pump. Separation is basically creating a primary and secondary loop each with their own pump or pumps. By separating the system this allows the pumps to work without having an influence on each other’s performance.
 
Your main issue is every time someone runs a tap, it'll switch the heating off then cycle for maybe 1-2 minutes. In a place like a pub it'll be being fired on HW every few minutes, so it'll never run on heating when needed.

Also agree regarding extra expansion and bigger pump. In all it's the wrong boiler though.
Thanks I appreciate that. The pub does not have a busy trade and relies on Chinese takeaways so domestic hot water demand is minimal.
 
The only sure fire way is as Shaun mentioned above, a proper survey of the property and calculate an accurate heat loss. There are quick cheat sheets available but they are only a guesstimate at best.
I appreciate you’re waiting to hear from the installer to see if they take responsibility and you are correct in doing so but I wouldn’t employ them to carry out the remedial work. The residual pump head of the pump is obviously not enough to reach the system extremities. An additional pump is and has been fitted but the system needs to be hydronically separated as well due to this additional pump. Separation is basically creating a primary and secondary loop each with their own pump or pumps. By separating the system this allows the pumps to work without having an influence on each other’s performance.
A most concise reply. I thank you.
 

Reply to System or Combi in local pub? in the Central Heating Forum area at PlumbersForums.net

Newest Plumbing Threads

Back
Top