What has caused the corrosion?

[snowdrop]

Asking for some help….

Would anyone be able to tell me what has caused the green corrosion on the pipe in the first photo?

This particular pipe leaked soon after the photo. The installers are saying it is caused by hard water.
But the pipe was installed 17mths before. In my view it is flux - from what I have learnt.

There are a lot of patches and spots of green on other pipes. I understand that the green is excessive flux from handling and tools, but the installers do not agree, although they cannot tell me what it is.
They have admitted that there is a lot of flux left on the pipes around the joins.

To me the green corrosion shown in the first photo looks the same as that in the other photos which is on the outside and therefore could not be hard water.

In my view it is odd that the leak is caused by hard water according to the installers, whereas all the other patches of corrosion can only be caused by flux.

These are just my views and I am grateful for any views and comments from those with experience.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

It looks like flux that's not been wiped off. You also get a green marking when a pipes been leaking for a while.

Where's it leaking from?

 

[Old Account]

Flux definitely .... They may havnt flushed the system too

 

[snowdrop]

Rocketmanbkk, thank you for your reply.
The green corrosion was cleaned off, but it wasn't leaking at the time. It leaked after it was cleaned, so it was not leaking for a while. The leak was from at the top of the green areas, just under the bracket. The photo is sideways, the bracket is at the top.

 

[gmartine]

An intermittent leak may coming from somewhere so your installers might be correct in that it's hardwater and not flux, does all the additional staining appear on the pipe that has the motorised valve (pic 2)?

 

[rpm]

It could be worse! lol

 

[rocketmanbkk]

View attachment 25018

It could be worse! lol

Nasty

 

[snowdrop]

gmartine, thank you for your reply - no there was no intermittent leak. It was not leaking before it was cleaned. It only leaked for the first time 3wks after it was cleaned, and the pipe was pitted at that point. Therefore it seems to me that the corrosion was on the outside rather than coming from the inside.

Not sure what you mean by:

does all the additional staining appear on the pipe that has the motorised valve (pic 2)?

 

[Riley]

cleaning pipe will not make it leak. It was either inferior quality, damaged or has been corroded as said before I would say flux

 

[plumben]

Looks like flux to me, are these Central heating pipes?

 

[snowdrop]

It seems to me from the replies, for which I am very grateful, that the corrosion on the outside of the pipe could only be caused by hard water, if there was a leak for some time either continuously or intermittently. Would that be correct?
But it was not leaking for some time, the leak came after the green area had developed.

I didn’t mean to say that cleaning caused the leak, rather that when it was cleaned we saw that it was not leaking.

The corroded pipe in the first photo is cold water, the others are heating pipes.

 

[Staffy85]

I would say flux based on picture two, it shows small splatter spots and a small leak would run not splatter..

 

[chris watkins]

An intermittent leak may coming from somewhere so your installers might be correct in that it's hardwater and not flux, does all the additional staining appear on the pipe that has the motorised valve (pic 2)?

Come on, you can't really believe that it is hard water which caused the trouble in stead of flux? Calcium and magnesium minerals do not attack copper if anything they coat & protect the inside copper surface.

If the leak was from under the clips (brackets) why would the hard water inside choose that place to come through?
Joint has been soldered above clips self cleaning flux has run down the pipe & gone under the clip where it has remained and corroded its way through helped if it is hot water by the heat.

Too much flux & not correctly washed off.

 

[chris watkins]

PS. ask the plumber to call in the Copper tube manufacturers if it British / EU tube it should have a 25 year guarantee again corrosion,

I bet they won't get them in cos they know they would just laugh.

 

[snowdrop]

PS. ask the plumber to call in the Copper tube manufacturers if it British / EU tube it should have a 25 year guarantee again corrosion,

I bet they won't get them in cos they know they would just laugh.

That is a very interesting point that you make, because their first excuse was that they could not guarantee the life of the pipes, although they had only installed them 17mths previously.
I will ask them.

 

[chris watkins]

That is a very interesting point that you make, because their first excuse was that they could not guarantee the life of the pipes, although they had only installed them 17mths previously.
I will ask them.

Look carefully around & down the lengths of copper tube the manufacturer & other details such as BS EN 1057 R250 & size, should either be embossed or printed along its length.

 

[Best]

Copper corrosion from water looks the same as flux corrosion often. If it is the flux causing that corrosion, it shows whatever the flux that has been used is terrible.
That's why I hate the strong acid fluxes that " self clean ". To think that the same flux is going inside the pipe also!
Simple as this, - if leaks are below the fittings, - it's the flux.

 

[ballvalve]

Hi to all,The green marks are flux marks,and cleaning it off can cause it to leak. ballvalve

 

[snowdrop]

Look carefully around & down the lengths of copper tube the manufacturer & other details such as BS EN 1057 R250 & size, should either be embossed or printed along its length.

I had a look and found something like this on only one pipe, but very difficult to read:
EN 1057 Streamline
Can't see any markings on other pipes.

 

[snowdrop]

Hi to all,The green marks are flux marks,and cleaning it off can cause it to leak. ballvalve

Thank you ballvalve, I think that is what we found - after cleaning it leaked, although with time it might have leaked any way.
There was another spot on the same pipe which looked similar to pic 1 and that suddenly leaked with a stream of water spouting out.

 

[Chalked]

That looks like pin holing to me. Can happen to a poor batch of copper, where the copper content has been reduced too much!
Good luck proving though, ad I've come across it a few times in my 36 years of experience and the manufacturers are ver good of laying blame elsewhere.
No fluxes these days are acid based, even the self cleaning types. Might be wise yo get your water checked out as I have come across corrosive water. Especially in rural ( moorland areas)

 

[jtsplumbing]

As above , have seen similar damage to cooper pipe on some holiday homes on Dartmoor, if supplied from well's and not treated. are you in an aggressive water area ?

 

[MOSSEP]

That looks like pin holing to me. Can happen to a poor batch of copper, where the copper content has been reduced too much!
Good luck proving though, ad I've come across it a few times in my 36 years of experience and the manufacturers are ver good of laying blame elsewhere.
No fluxes these days are acid based, even the self cleaning types. Might be wise yo get your water checked out as I have come across corrosive water. Especially in rural ( moorland areas)

I had this problem at an office block I worked in in London. Got called back after a year or so as 2 leaks had occurred in pipes in 2 rooms that we did. Looked like flux marks but were no where near soldered joints.

 

[chris watkins]

http://www.fwr.org/copper.pdf

There you go guys tick em off how many types have you come cross in your working lives?

 

[Chalked]

Looks like the op got the info he wanted to hear ( damage due to flux) . Then plumber can be blamed!.
Other than the advice he didn't want to hear ( corrosion to pipework)

 

[chris watkins]

Looks like the op got the info he wanted to hear ( damage due to flux) . Then plumber can be blamed!.
Other than the advice he didn't want to hear ( corrosion to pipework)

Come on, the overwhelming evidence was that it was caused by flux

or do you still think this hard water corrosion targeted just the pipework under the clip ??

I have seen most forms (Type 1 & 2 pitting, erosion corrosion, dezincification) as well as flux attact so I know what I would go with.

 

[Chalked]

There is no " overwhelming" evidence. As we can't see the whole install. I fail to see how any flux could rot through a pipe in 18 months.

 

[chris watkins]

I had a Woolworths locally with a bank of 15mm tube, one above the other, E/F coupling on top pipe with pin hole leak on one below, no joint anywhere close but you could see were the flux had dripped & had not been washed off.

That was just over a year after it as installed & again a month later & 6 months after that.

Wonder why? - because it was all run behind a tiled stud wall through the store, I could see that it was the same all the way along the run from the first time it happened but they didn't want to believe me & bite the bullet & get it sorted.

 

[snowdrop]

According some members I need to be living in the moors or have a well, instead of being in a normal residential area. The previous, old pipes, were here for 20yrs if not 50yrs and had no corrosion – same water, different pipes, different plumber.

What about pic3 - the patch is in the middle of a length of pipe – this was cleaned off - the corrosion was on the outside. It hasn’t leaked. This is the same as pic1 the patch is in the middle of a length of pipe.

There are many spots and patches of green corrosion on many of the newly installed pipes from 18mths ago. There were other patches which were also under the clips.
Some have been cleaned off and they are all on the outside and have not leaked – yet.
What is this then?

I have many photos, I just haven’t posted them all.

 

[Chalked]

According some members I need to be living in the moors or have a well, instead of being in a normal residential area. The previous, old pipes, were here for 20yrs if not 50yrs and had no corrosion – same water, different pipes, different plumber.

What about pic3 - the patch is in the middle of a length of pipe – this was cleaned off - the corrosion was on the outside. It hasn’t leaked. This is the same as pic1 the patch is in the middle of a length of pipe.

There are many spots and patches of green corrosion on many of the newly installed pipes from 18mths ago. There were other patches which were also under the clips.
Some have been cleaned off and they are all on the outside and have not leaked – yet.
What is this then?

I have many photos, I just haven’t posted them all.

I stand corrected

 

[joni os]

Latex gloves keeps flux away from plumber's fingers but doesn't protect the pipes being handled.