Basic fitting question - attaching/fixing toilet and basin

[edwardk]

Hi - I have a small downstairs cloakroom and would like to know what is the best way to attach the toilet and the basin.

The basin will be fixed to a blockwork wall and it came with some screws and a fitting plate (Roca basin). However, my brother says that some threaded rod and a chemical cement (Chemset ?) will make a better join and be a better job.

What would you do ?

Also have a toilet to fit.
Have the waste pipe and cold water input in place. Just need to fix it to the floor and wall.
The wall is studwork and I have a noggin in the right place behind all the plasterboard etc. I was going to use stainless steel screws through the cistern back (there are holes in the ceramic for that I guess).

For fixing it to the tiled floor (then screed - about 80mm) I was going to drill a 6mm hole and use the mm floor bolts that come with the toilet but again my brother said that most people just put down a bed of silicon and squidge it down.

What is the better way or a combination of both ?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[mrlennie]

For the toilet I would say your best bolting it down silicone is abit of a botch- just make sure you have screws that wont rust. For the basin the fixings you have are fine unless your going to be swinging off it.

 

[edwardk]

Thanks - I got a Fischer basin fitting kit from a mate who had it spare. Two M10 bolts and a 14mm plug for the wall. Looks like a good way of fixing the basin on to the wall.

As for the toilet - it has 2 x 5mm bolts. I was planning on drilling through the tiles (tile drill ?) with a 6mm hole and using a 6mm plug. Maybe just a bead of silicon around the toilet base to stop it rocking/grating ?

Thanks
Ed

 

[mrlennie]

The bolts will give it a good fixing no silicone needed - You might put some on to stop water getting under and creating a smell.

 

[edwardk]

Toilet done - thanks for the advice - as you said, the bolts hold it nicely. Put some silicon around the base and man oh man it is messy stuff. Got it tidied up in the end but yeah, sticky stuff...

Going to fit the basin to the wall this morning then look for pipework to connect it all together.

I have the 110mm foul pipe from the back of the toilet out through the wall into the drains.
The basin waste pipe ... can I run this into the side or top of this toilet waste pipe.
They would be at 90 degrees to each other.

What size waste pipe is normally used for basins ?

Thanks for any advice.
Ed

 

[mrlennie]

The basin waste will be 1 1/4" pipe. You might want to do the boss (connector to the 110) first as fiddling round with that with a basin in the way might be tricky. Just make sure you do the boss in a way that the pipe will have a slight fall on it. Also get your water supply underneath the basin ready. A tip I read on here was to sort your tap connectors out before you hang the basin then you will have pipes coming down the basin and pipes running along the floor all you will have to to is two elbows and presto. The alternative is a lot of smacking your head off the basin.

Yeah silicone is messy and it gives me a headache.

Really smart job I'm impressed.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

where is that feed pipe under the soil going? if it is fro the toilet i would have taken it up behind the soil other than that neat job

steve

 

[edwardk]

There are two copper 15mm pipes there - for the basin.

Yes, the toilet cold input is behind the pan

Just putting in the rest of the copper h/c to the basin and then will fit the basin screws and the basin.

For the basin to the boss : should I come out of the bottom of the basin, into a trap then a 90 degree elbow - then a vertical piece of pipe before another 90 into the slightly sloped pipe to the boss ?

Going to box it in after I hope.

Thanks
Ed

 

[mrlennie]

If you are meaning basically do the same with the waste as with your hot and cold then yes that would be best imo

elbow as the bottom of the basin pedestal.

 

[edwardk]

Right - got a saddle/strap boss for a 110mm foul waste pipe. It slips over the 110mm pipe and has a boss for a 32mm basin waste to connect to it.

I'm ok with the basin waste connection - this looks like you just add solvent glue to the insert into the saddle, solvent glue into the insert for the basin waste and push the lot together.

What I need advice on is how to connect the saddle boss to the 110mm pipe.

It looks like it is a 56mm or 57mm hole that I need to drill into the 110mm and then slip the saddle boss over the top.
There isn't any o-ring so am I right in thinking that I just make sure the hole I drill is a good fit and put lots of solvent glue all over the hole area ? Do I also glue the rest of the saddle strap on ?

Thanks for any help - getting there !
Ed

 

[mikeygas]

glue around all of the strap on and the hole area.

 

[365drills]

To fit that basin you will be best off using that Fisher fixing kit.



Just drill a 12mm hole into the masonary. And fit the peg.

Sorry about the image but this is from a set of pics where we show people how to drill holes through a tile to fit a fischer fixing kit




http://www.*********.com/jpgs/drillingtiles2.jpg

The tile is drilled with a 16mm hole and a 30mm hole with PORSADRILL diamond tile drills

 

[edwardk]

Thanks for that - yes, I've fitted the Fisher bolts (14mm hole for plugs according to package).

However the holes in the back of the basin are too small for the Fisher white nylon protector washer inserts....

What I've been doing is trying to grind the basin holes a little larger and also sanding the nylon washer sleeves a little smaller. i think that these washer sleeves are needed but am tempted to not use them and hope for the best. I guess they are to stop any basin cracks if people lean on the basin ?

Anyway, the main issue for me now is not having a 57mm hole saw for cutting the saddle boss into the foul 110mm waste - so have ordered an Axminster set for 20 quid. Should be here soon and anyway am busy with other stuff at the moment.

Was going to run the basin waste down more or less level with the horizontal copper pipes and then into the saddle boss making sure that there is about an inch drop over the metre or so - is this a good approach ? Or do i need more drop ?
Thanks
Ed

 

[kay-jay]

18-80mm per metre is the acceptable range for a fall on waste pipe iirc. so an inch as you suggest is fine!
as for the 20 quid hole saw i just use crappy silverline holesaw kit from toolstation it only cost about 7 quid and works great on soil pipe and plastic baths etc.

KJ

 

[edwardk]

Merde ! It gets worse.. not having a good time tonight and it's still early ...

Well thought I'd fit the basin to the wall and it all seemed to go well.
I started to tighten up the nuts (you know what's coming) and the basin still seemed to trock a bit so I gave it another turn of the spanner... crack ! B0ll0x...

Well it still seems to hold in place but it was pretty stupid of me. I guess that you guys put some kind of packing rubber between the wall and the basin ? THere seems to be a gap so the basin is tightening against thin air. Didn't even think about it (more used to tightening up bolts in wood).

Anyway - was planning on leaving it like that and mixing up some marine epoxy (West System) and smearing it into the cracks and hoping for the best.

Are basins just sort of lightly tightened and then they stop rocking when you add silicon around the perimeter ? Or do I need to add other fixings to stop the rocking ? Or should I have added a good squeeze of something like Grip fill before I started tightening ?

Anyway... not amused.

I slackened off the other side a bit as it isn't cracked.

Also I was wondering about isolator valves... (union ball ? it says intaball on the valve but I couldn't find any refs on the www).

I haven't fixed them yet as I was unsure of :
1 - have I got them the right way up ? They seem to be full bore and have no arrow on them to indicate flow.
2 - do I need PTFE tape or should I just tighten with two spanners (gently)
3 - to my mind they should be level and either facing out or to the side but the taps on them hit each other or the wall - not a good design - I guess you guys stagger them normally.

Think I am getting there... hopefully at any rate. Ed

 

[PlumbBobBob]

bad luck with the basin if there are no arrows on the valves they probably go either way and just do them up with spanners but not overtighten. i would place them at 45 degrees to the wall right and left so that they look symmetrical

steve

 

[edwardk]

Got my hole saw - all connected now.
Just another basic question - I poured some water in the sink and it all leaked out of the bottom ! Doh !

In the pic just a post or two above of the underside of the sink you can see that I have the basin then a washer then a black nut.
Should I put some kind of sealant there ? Either on the washer to basin side or on the top side (ie the metal waste insert that the plug goes in to).

Yeah this is probably painful for you guys who do this day in day out - and I hate being ignorant but hoping to work it all out !

Also I only tightened the black nut up as much as I could with my hands as I don't have a spanner big enough - had a look in B&Q on the way home to look for a bains spanner or something but no luck.

So silicon top side or bottom side ?

Also the overflow from the basin (Roca) would go down and meet the metal insert - however there is no hole through the metal and into the inside of the insert - do you normally work out the right height and drill a hole ? At the moment if any water overflows then it will just gather in side the basin shape.

Confused - Ed

 

[PlumbBobBob]

yes i would use silicone under the top of the waste and also under the rubber washer around the metal to seal the waste. also you can get wastes with holes for overflow and without holes when there isn't an overflow sounds like you have the latter just get one for an overflow

steve

 

[moony]

haha lets hear all the cowboy posters jump on now.

not long ago steve i said i always silicone my wastes - some people on here jumped onto me like a tonne of bricks

 

[edwardk]

Thanks - so a bit of silicon top and bottom - will give that a go.
Finger tighten the black nut or is there a special spanner ?
Waste hole - thanks will check with shop...

Ed

 

[dontknowitall]

I find if I don't silicone the wastes they leak.

Nice one Edwardk and at the risk of sounding patronising, well done for having a go. Looks good. I like to tighten all nuts by fingers/hand so I can ensure I'm not crossing the thread and also have put the two pipes together reasonably straight.

With your black nut, a ring of silicone all round it, hand tight to basin then I use pump pliers to tighten against basin, but not too tight as silicone, when dried, will make it water tight.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

i use pump pliers as well (they're not just for pumps!) to tighten waste bottom nuts

steve

 

[moony]

I find if I don't silicone the wastes they leak.

Nice one Edwardk and at the risk of sounding patronising, well done for having a go. Looks good. I like to tighten all nuts by fingers/hand so I can ensure I'm not crossing the thread and also have put the two pipes together reasonably straight.

With your black nut, a ring of silicone all round it, hand tight to basin then I use pump pliers to tighten against basin, but not too tight as silicone, when dried, will make it water tight.

me too matey, i just got slated for suggesting silicone on here a week or so ago....

 

[TC.]

me too matey, i just got slated for suggesting silicone on here a week or so ago....

Hi all, interesting read, just started my apprentiship, and my boss has had me building up bathroom sinks every morning before he fits it to the bathroom wall.

He requires me to insert silcone sealant in between the gap where the waste pipe/plug insert exits through the sink, and run a bead round the top. This is to act as a second safty seal against unwanted leaks should the rubber gasket which sits between the black nut and sink base fail.

I like this train of thought and not only does it prevent leaks it shows that you are taking care of the customers property by showing forethought.

 

[edwardk]

All fixed now and working - well I say working but as there isn't any mains yet at least when I pour a cup o' water down it heads down the drains rather than the cloakroom floor

Next job ... the dreaded upstairs bathroom. Will start a new thread for that as I'm bound to have questions and feckups...

Thanks for all your help - getting closer to finishing my 4 year build-a-house-in-evenings-and-weekends project
Ed

 

[dontknowitall]

Tip for you with bathroom ... take everything out then before tiling and fitting suite, paint ceiling and walls, window and door as it saves covering all the tiles and basin and things from splatter marks.

Still, should be a piece of cake for you now!

 

[kay-jay]

in general i also use silicon to bed wastes in. you don't get leaks this way and it can be touch and go without it.
i have found that if the washers and seals provided are more like plastic than rubber you definately have to use silicon. if the seals are a nice soft squishy and pliable rubber (usually higher end products, and usually white ish) then you don't need it.

KJ

 

[edwardk]

I used a bessey clamp to tighten the black plastic nut as it has straight/flat jaws - worked really well.

Forgot to check - do I need PTFE tape on the isolator valve compression fittings ? - so far just tightened them lightly with spanners and no tape.

Yes - the under sink washer was a hard translucent one rather than a squishy one so used silicon top and bottom.

 

[PlumbBobBob]

no you don't need ptfe on the isolators unless you overdo them and they start to leak then only around the olive

steve

 

[fuzzy]

Right - got a saddle/strap boss for a 110mm foul waste pipe. It slips over the 110mm pipe and has a boss for a 32mm basin waste to connect to it.

I'm ok with the basin waste connection - this looks like you just add solvent glue to the insert into the saddle, solvent glue into the insert for the basin waste and push the lot together.

What I need advice on is how to connect the saddle boss to the 110mm pipe.

It looks like it is a 56mm or 57mm hole that I need to drill into the 110mm and then slip the saddle boss over the top.
There isn't any o-ring so am I right in thinking that I just make sure the hole I drill is a good fit and put lots of solvent glue all over the hole area ? Do I also glue the rest of the saddle strap on ?

Thanks for any help - getting there !
Ed

drill a hole slightly larger than the raised edge on the inside of the boss, then solvent weld or silicone the boos into place