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Discuss Commissioning paperwork in the Gas Safe Register Forum - Public Forum area at UKPlumbersForums.co.uk.

  1. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    Hi guys new member here. I've got a problem with a landlord refusing to pay me what was quoted plus an additional days labour for installing a new boiler. The extra day was due to the tenant being unreasonable and asking me to start work at 10.30 and leave at 16.00. I initially quoted for 2 men for 2 days as the old non condensing boiler was on the top floor of a 3 storey flat roofed property. I needed the second man just for lifting and shifting. It dragged on for nearly a week and already gave an extra day free of charge to complete the commissioning process. I was wondering were I would stand in regards to withholding the benchmark paperwork until payment is made?. I already did the job as cheap as possible due to the fact I've just become self employed and could do with any work at the moment. The landlord says he normally gets a boiler changed and commissioned in 5 or 6 hours for £250 which I highly doubt. Any help from you guys would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Harvest Fields

    Harvest Fields Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Thankfully I have not had this issue as yet. But I am sure one of the other lads or lasess will be around at some point to point you in the right direction
     
  3. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    To be honest it's the first time I've had someone refuse to pay me and just setting up on my own it's not something I can afford to just take on the chin. Since doing work for the guy I've heard nothing but bad things about him and how he's not payed other people.
     
  4. king of pipes

    king of pipes Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    When you register the boiler you can have the registration certificate from gas safe sent to your address i would hold on to it till payment has been resoved , gentlemans agreement means nothing if you havent got it in writing what you are charging then its the small claims court but be aware you could loose , always cover your ass bud you must have proof of what they agree to pay especially working for dodgy landlords. Cheers kop
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Stoney Ground

    Stoney Ground GSR

    I had a Customer who hadn't paid for no reason, so I did not register the boiler. They complained to gas safe who then investigated, I explained to them that part of my contract states that registration and garauntees are only enforceable and completed on final payment. They said I had to register boiler after install.

    I now register and hold all paperwork until full and final payment.

    Tell Landlord to pass extra cost on to his tennant, in future state that out of hours or restricted access will incur further costs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  6. king of pipes

    king of pipes Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Good for you stoney i would do the same keep it all the benchmark, manual , boiler guarantee and gas registration .
     
  7. moonlight

    moonlight Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    If you have quoted for the work and the customer accepted the quote he is legally bound to pay. I would register the boiler as that is your legal responsibility but keep all paper work accept the user guide( hand that to tenant) until payment.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. Vee

    Vee GSR

    Money Claim Online worked brilliantly for me to get my money. Read the guidance and make your claim. Regarding the extra time I would think you take the loss unless you covered your back in your paperwork. Working for stingy landlords is always fraught and you don't go there if you can help it or price accordingly. A lesson learned with a landlord who clearly takes advantage of the inexperienced. Good Luck.

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...jlr3EdSNRaOvjz5Gw&sig2=YeSYPTrR1BUatMHMt8HSeg
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  9. jtsplumbing

    jtsplumbing Plumber GSR

    Hard lesson to learn but you've not lost to much, just get what you are owed, & mark it down to experience, Landlords like letting agents will stich you up without even thinking about it, Reason they know lots of new start ups are eager for the work and are a little green about pricing etc.. But you will soon learn to spot them and walk away.
     
  10. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    Thanks for all your help guys. If gas safe say I have to register it then I suppose I'm tied in to doing that even if I've not been paid. I'll have to look at where the paperwork gets sent. It's a vokera boiler I fitted which by the looks of their paperwork I send off all the benchmark stuff to them and they inform gas safe and activate the warranty at the same time.
     
  11. scott_d

    scott_d Plumber GSR

    Keep all paperwork and don't register anything til gas safe instruct you to.
     
  12. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    Think I will give gas safe a call today just to see where I stand legally about registering the boiler then withholding the paperwork. Don't want to land myself in trouble with them.
     
  13. oz-plumber

    oz-plumber Plumber

    If your system works like our, Gas Safe will only care about you registering the boiler.
    They won't get involved with contracts between installer and owner.

    If you can get the paperwork sent to you - that will be your only bargaining point with the Landlord.
    Gas Safe won't listen to him, due to you fulfilling your legal requirement of registering the boiler with them.
     
  14. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    That's what I'm hoping. If I cover myself legally by registering the boiler it will then be down to the landlord to recover the paperwork from myself.
     
  15. scott_d

    scott_d Plumber GSR

    Or he can just request a copy from them once he knows it's registered
     
  16. Matchless.plumb

    Matchless.plumb Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    I would definitely do all the later work as mentioned many times above but also too claims court. It works very well, it's very fast problem solving. If you have got everything in writing or via email or text messages than you are on the safe side. Once they receive the first letter from a claim court they'll start trying to look for a negotiation out of the court. But make sure you've got more things to proof than them because they only judge on who can proof more. But you also could call the citizens advice bureau and ask them what steps you should go.
     
  17. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    That's the thing I was worried about. If he does that I've basically got nothing to use against him. Is it easy for the landlord to just request a duplicate copy?
     
  18. oz-plumber

    oz-plumber Plumber

    Start from the beginning:

    1- Did you provide a written formal quotation for the works?

    2- Did you inform the Landlord of the tenants requests due to start times?

    3- Has your price changed from the original quoted price due to requiring 2 men to do the works without informing Landlord?

    4- Has your price changed due to the tenant requirements without informing Landlord?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. jtsplumbing

    jtsplumbing Plumber GSR

    Just register with GS , but don't register boiler with Vokera, that way he wont get the extended warranty, That's down to owner to do anyway.
     
  20. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    Yes I supplied a quote initially which included 2 men for 2 days.
    I rang the landlord on the first day telling him the tenant wasn't being reasonable with working hours.
    The original quote was for 2 days but with the tenant being unreasonable with working hours and then one day informing me he was running late in the morning but actually calling me a 2.30 in the afternoon to say he was back. I basically lost a full day waiting for the tenant to be at the address.

    I informed the landlord that there would be 1 extra days labour due to the tenant messing around and the flue which the landlord had already purchased along with the boiler was incorrect.

    I even took a 4th day to go back and finish the commissioning which I didn't charge for.
     
  21. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    I'm sure he could just request a copy of the benchmark and just register the warranty himself though once gas safe have it.
     
  22. jtsplumbing

    jtsplumbing Plumber GSR

    He could but most customers forget to do it, that's why I register boilers for them, + if you belong to there loyalty scheme some register with GS for you FOC + you get your reward points/money
     
  23. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    He won't forget. He's a penny pinching landlord that apparently has 40 houses so he probably knows exactly what he's doing. After doing the work I've heard nothing but bad reports about him. He's tried telling me he gets a boiler swapped and commissioned in half a day.
     
  24. jtsplumbing

    jtsplumbing Plumber GSR

    Think you are just chasing mist on this one ! get what you quoted for & walk away, mark it down as a learning curve , if he asks again tell him to use the Co that does it in half a day, you can bet he will stich up some one else on next job
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    I'd be happy if he just payed what I initially quoted really and at least get some money back.
     
  26. lisawig81

    lisawig81 New Member

    From a contractual point of view, he should pay what was initially quoted, regardless of any further works, this guy sounds like your typical tight fisted landlord. Don't back down, get the money you are owed. Keep sending him invoices for the outstanding amount, look into a debt collection company for enforcement. Not sure how that works for self employed. At least you know for next time! Good Luck!
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  27. hammers4spanner

    hammers4spanner Plumber GSR

    I get this on occasions sometimes depending on who it is depends on what i do . Tenants from experience are usually a nightmare anyway .
    Never go cheap for a landlord stuff um
     
  28. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    Update on this guys. Still not been paid and I've still not sent the commissioning paperwork off (still well within the 30 days). But I've been asked to go back and look at the boiler by the landlord because there is apparently a leak on the boiler now. I know for definite there were no leaks when I filled it and no leaks when I commissioned it. I've agreed to go and take a look but I was wondering if while I'm there i can cap the gas supply and say the boiler isn't safe as it isn't commissioned?
     
  29. stani

    stani Plumber GSR

    If he's not paid you, go back take your boiler home with you.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  30. scott_d

    scott_d Plumber GSR

    Meet him there, see the cash first then fix and take it home.
     
  31. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    Unfortunately the boiler was bought by the landlord. I've filled in the benchmark paperwork but not sent it yet. So I was just thinking about going back and putting a notice on the boiler and capping it off as technically it shouldn't be used until officially commissioned. And he won't go to any of his properties he just deals with everything over the phone or via email. So I'm guessing not paying is something he does quite regularly.
     
  32. scott_d

    scott_d Plumber GSR

    Has he given a reason for not paying?
     
  33. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    Yeah saying I took too long and I was asking too much as I requested an extra days labour. He said he normally gets a boiler swap done by one man in half a day. I quoted 2 days for 2 men as the boiler was on the top floor of a 3 storey house with a vertical flue onto a flat roof. Also had to fit 2 rads. There was that much stuff in the house that we had to carry the old boiler out above our heads and the same with the new one. There was no way it was possible with one man. Then the tenant was unreasonable, on the first day he let us in at 10.30 then asked us to leave at 4 then the job dragged out over nearly 5 days because he was just being awkward. One day he said he was running late in the morning so I just said ring me when he was home as I was only local, he rang at 2.30 in the afternoon so I basically wasted a day waiting for him. I also lost another job that I had to postpone because of it.
     
  34. Matchless.plumb

    Matchless.plumb Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    I guess he isn't allowed to do so is he ?
     
  35. Matchless.plumb

    Matchless.plumb Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    Honestly, I would all in the morning citizen advise bureau to ask where you legally stand. Afterwards I'd go to the customer call him once more and maybe record with another phone the speech, try to be popliteal but always coming to the point, mention the points you pointed out to us and ask him to make a payment before starting the work. If he doesn't pay, ( me personally) I would take the boiler off the wall cap the gas ( because it isn't commissioned ) and legally it's still your boiler u less the customer paid for it (but he will need a proof anyway), and then let him coming back to you. He will surely give you a call within 10 minutes. Then I would charge even more more on top for causing such a inconvenience to your business. Time, petrol, hours you spent for free, also this Nonsens back and forth. I wouldn't hesitate if it's were me- no one takes a **** with me like this. I also would t care what other people and installer think ( but that's me, some rouge customer have to feel it that's not right).
     
  36. lisawig81

    lisawig81 New Member

    If anything happens at that property the landlord is legally accountable. I'm sorry, but if he has been employing engineers who can fit a boiler, with a vertical flue, plus 2 rads in half a day, they are obviously cutting corners! Impossible to complete that work to standards! I would not re-attend until your money was paid... Not a chance. He is taking the p***! Tell him you will not be fixing any leaks until your initial quote/invoice has been paid. He knew the cost from your quote prior to works being carried out, Very frustrating! You are trying to complete gas works to a safe standard and this guy is basically willing to put his tenants lives at risk expecting the job to be done in 4-5 hours! Or... you advise him you want paying up front to re-attend... but then you run the risk of not being paid should the job be more than just a standard call out. I agree with matchless.plumb... You need to seek advice and this guy may need to be reported... he may be a member of the NLA or the RLA. I hope this works out for you I really do.
     
  37. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    I've spoken to the tenant and he is happy for me to come and cap the gas as the landlord as been a nightmare with him. The tenant has just said come and cap it if I need to and he will ring his local council as his wife is severely disabled. He has had to go through the council before as the landlord has been useless and left them with no heat or hot water. Which I suppose if the council get involved it puts a bit more pressure on the landlord.
     
  38. lisawig81

    lisawig81 New Member

    Absolutely shocking behavior! This guy is one of the reasons why the gas safety industry is in such a bad place! Hopefully the council will intervene and enforce the landlord to acknowledge his legal obligation...
     
  39. stani

    stani Plumber GSR

    Having read the above I feel Gassafe register is over stepping the mark by telling us to register the boiler even if the bill has not been paid, their only purpose is to ensure gas is done to a standard, I cannot see where they would get any legal clout to make an installer register something that hasn't been fully paid for,
     
  40. Best

    Best Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    I think the "leak" that the landlord now claims can be a problem to you in court if you ignore it. The landlord has the law on his side for faulty work (and he knows it) and can withhold payment for substandard work. That is normally the only legitimate reason of non payment of an agreed quote for an agreed job.
    If you refuse to go and look at the "leak" to rectify it, then the court can judge it that you hadn't completed the work to a satisfactory standard - if the landlord uses that as an excuse.
    You can imagine how it would look if landlord brought unanswered letters about a leak, plus photographs of water damage to a court.
    So be careful to reply properly and professionally and keep records.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  41. scott_d

    scott_d Plumber GSR

    Have you been paid anything?
    Did you take a deposit?
    Do you know from the tenant what the leak is?
     
  42. Percy84

    Percy84 GSR

    Been paid a small amount, absolutely no where just the initial quote. Didn't take a deposit as the landlord bought the boiler so materials weren't a great deal. And the leak sounds like it's nothing to do with the boiler because I've had a different story from the landlord and the tenant.
     
  43. Vee

    Vee GSR

    Would not go down the route of capping. Get certificate sent to yourself. (You can delay by max time as you have 28 days). Take a look at the leak as he has to give you the opportunity to rectify if its yours. Take a camera and get pictures especially if its not a leak of your doing. Be patient. Keep records of communications and get as much in writing i.e. via SMS and email.
     
    • Like Like x 2