common return on stanards pipe layout

[EBrant]

Hello



when using a serial rather than a parallel piping system you need to fit a pressure relieve value between the feed and return on the boiler

it seems the serial (second option) is more efficient and there my save gas (and thereby money)

Any suggestions/advise ?

thanks
EBrant

 

[Bolty123]

Hi are you talking about one and two pipe systems? If you are talking about systems for your own domestic property I seriously doubt a one pipe system would be more efficient.

 

[EBrant]

Hi are you talking about one and two pipe systems? If you are talking about systems for your own domestic property I seriously doubt a one pipe system would be more efficient.

Thanks very much for the reply.

What I meant was:

In a standard system (domestic) you have a single 22mm pipe which goes from the flow around the house and back to the return. Each radiator then simple tees off of this 22mm pipe in parallel e.g. 15mm tee in 22mm pipe to one side of rad (e.g. flow where TRV is located) then at the other end of the rad 15mm pip returns to same 22mm pipe. The 22mm pipe is unbroken e.g. continues under the floor from there the two 15mm tee are spliced in to it. So basically if you turn off all the rads completely the water scan still flow from the flow and return on the boiler.

The other option (and the one I believe is more efficient) is where you have two 22mm pipes one from the flow and the other from the return. (connected to flow and return at last rad) were the flow 22mm goes to the flow side of each rad and the return goes to the return 22mm e.g. common return. However if you shut off all rads water cannot flow therefore do not shut off all rads or add pressure relieve value between flow and return near boiler.

2 option means all rads heat together therefore less if any balancing required

what do you think of option 2

Thanks
E Brant

 

[Chalked]

I thought you were getting a gsr to install your new boiler??
your post shows your lack of knowledge.

 

[stevetheplumber]

you have no idea m8 get a pro in

 

[EBrant]

you have no idea m8 get a pro in

Hello

I am getting a GSR plumber to fit the boiler but running my own pipe work. Hence do I with the usual option 1 or option 2

option 2 (aka common return) appears to better but not that often used as required more pipe work

Thanks
E Brant

 

[Masood]

Hello

I am getting a GSR plumber to fit the boiler but running my own pipe work. Hence do I with the usual option 1 or option 2

option 2 (aka common return) appears to better but not that often used as required more pipe work

Thanks
E Brant

Two-pile system all day long. More efficient, easier to balance, quicker to heat up. But your questions and mangled terminology are worrying. It shows you really haven't much grasp of the subject.

 

[dancinplumba]

Two pipe is the norm

 

[solutions]

Hello

I am getting a GSR plumber to fit the boiler but running my own pipe work. Hence do I with the usual option 1 or option 2

option 2 (aka common return) appears to better but not that often used as required more pipe work

Thanks
E Brant

2 pipe not commonly used.....? Are you having a laugh? It is the most common system in use bar none and for good reason. This isnt a recent change either 2 pipe has been the norm for most domestic since before I was born. If you are looking for upmost efficiency then you want a 2 pipe reversed return fully pumped sealed system. Dont waste your time attempting the pipework its not complicated by aby means but you dont have the knowledge to know for sure what you are doing wont cost you time and money in the long run.

 

[chris watkins]

EBrant, you really need to be asking your questions to the boiler installer not to us !! each property, boiler & system will have its own requirements & challenges.

Just imagen if you do all the pipework installation only to find that you have made a mistake in, lets say, the pipe sizing (not all systems are based on 22 & 15mm) or the pipe work design (some boilers will not work correctly with one of the designs you seem to be describing) the controls system (there are legal requirements on what must be provided) the minimum flow rates (modern boilers require).
I could go on & on but think you may be getting the picture, it is not as simple as you seem to believe & the consequents of getting it wrong can be very costly.

All the best, it is why we do a 4 year apprenticeship.

 

[doitmyself]

In a standard system (domestic) you have a single 22mm pipe which goes from the flow around the house and back to the return.

Let's stop there. That is not correct. The 22mm pipe does not go round the house from flow back to return. There are two separate pipes, flow and return, which are connected together by the radiators. Think of a ladder: the sides are the 22mm pipes and the rungs are the radiators.

And that is what you have given as option 2!

2 option means all rads heat together therefore less if any balancing required

If only! Balancing the system will always be required.

 

[chris watkins]

Let's stop there. That is not correct. The 22mm pipe does not go round the house from flow back to return. There are two separate pipes, flow and return, which are connected together by the radiators. Think of a ladder: the sides are the 22mm pipes and the rungs are the radiators.

And that is what you have given as option 2!

If only! Balancing the system will always be required.

They could install a option 1 (single pipe) system if they wished!

 

[kris]

Single pipe systems are a thing of the year 19 oatcake ,,, my grandfather had teeth back then i do believe,

 

[doitmyself]

They could install a option 1 (single pipe) system if they wished!

I didn't think of option 1 as a single pipe. I viewed it as similar to option 2, but the 22mm flow and return were joined together after the last rad. To use my ladder analogy, the sides were joined together at the top.

 

[solutions]

I didn't think of option 1 as a single pipe. I viewed it as similar to option 2, but the 22mm flow and return were joined together after the last rad. To use my ladder analogy, the sides were joined together at the top.

What would make the water move through the relative high resistance of the radiators if it can just whip round a continuous flow and return loop? Answer. Nothing. What you are describing exists in a form to prevent the pump pushing against closed radiator valves as they close at reached room temp. Its called an automatic bypass but bridges between the flow and return after the pump bit before motorised valves. This just reinforces that you neeed to be talking all this through with the gas safe registered plumber who is fitting your boiler as most system or combi boilers have a bypass built in and so dobt require one to be piped up. Do you know if it is a Combi, System or Open vent boiler being fitted? Apologies if this has allready been stated I havent read the thread from the beginning again and cant recall.

 

[Bolty123]

I'm guessing that you mean an automatic bypass valve when you say pressure relief valve. You may or may not need one depending on the boiler you are getting. The best thing to do if you are really intent on doing the pipe work yourself is find a Gsr who is willing to work with this arrangement and let him charge you a consultation rate to point you in the right direction or it sounds like it may go horribly wrong.

 

[MarkAqua]

Are you talking about a reverse return system rather than a one pipe? As I'm confused why you would A. Fit a one pipe system anywhere! And
B. Fit a reverse return in a domestic dwelling.

 

[doitmyself]

What would make the water move through the relative high resistance of the radiators if it can just whip round a continuous flow and return loop? Answer. Nothing.

I could say the same about a one-pipe system: what's to stop the water bypassing the rads and just travelling round and round the 22mm pipe?

As for the rest of your reply, you obviously don't appreciate that I am not the OP. Maybe you might not have made that mistake if you had bothered to read the whole topic.

And I do know what an ABV is, what it does and where it is normally located - if it's not already in the boiler.

 

[josh]

Mass confusion and a silly post, clearly going to do it all himself.
people like this should be banned from the forum.

 

[chris watkins]

Mass confusion and a silly post, clearly going to do it all himself.
people like this should be banned from the forum.

Agree with first line, josh but not second.

Who are we to start deciding who gets to speak or not.

Perhaps what is required is a little more insight and then restraint from members not to provide information which would assist these posters !!!

 

[josh]

Agree with first line, josh but not second.

Who are we to start deciding who gets to speak or not.

Perhaps what is required is a little more insight and then restraint from members not to provide information which would assist these posters !!!

Agree but i do find it annoying how we all train and work hard and then get the arrogance of some people that come wondering on here wanting/thinking they know it all and wanting all the advice so they can try do it themselves when they shouldn't be even attempting it in the first place.

 

[chris watkins]

Agree, to them it is just putting a few pipes together its easy, I have push fit pipes & the inter web, how difficult could it be !!!! "What you don't know, you don't know" !

What it means by that is it is only with training and the knowledge that comes from it that you understand just what you did know before you started.

Ignorance can be bliss until it becomes bl++y expensive.

 

[Chalked]

Trouble with this one is you just know he is fitting his own boiler.

 

[chris watkins]

Trouble with this one is you just know he is fitting his own boiler.

Of course he is!!

 

[Best]

Hope he sends in photos of his work.

 

[josh]

You are both right, not that i post much i just don't like the fact people come on here and take the p*ss !

 

[solutions]

I could say the same about a one-pipe system: what's to stop the water bypassing the rads and just travelling round and round the 22mm pipe?

As for the rest of your reply, you obviously don't appreciate that I am not the OP. Maybe you might not have made that mistake if you had bothered to read the whole topic.

And I do know what an ABV is, what it does and where it is normally located - if it's not already in the boiler.

Wo.... doitmyself. No offence intended. I did read the whole topic back when the thread was one page where my first post resides. On revisiting the thread I confused in issolation your reply as that of the OP. With regards to 1 pipe systems as I understand it most of the flow did indeed just travel around the single loop from flow to return but then it was typically used with true radiators rather than convectors that had much lower resistance and there was of course a time many many years ago that toungue T's were used to assist in diverting a greater volume of flow through the radiator. I was not suggesting you didnt know what an abv was just that that is the only instance I can think of where the flow and return are bridged other than with an emitter / convector / radiator. Of course I myself had forgotten to include low loss headers which bridge too but again not after the rads.