Communal Rising main water pipe

[Pipeman222]

Hi all.

Doing a house renovation here at my flat that I owed for about 20 years have decided finally that time to spend some money on myself and live normally.

Basically knocked out larder cupboards and walls making a kitchen diner finally got permission from the freeholders that took about 1 year alone.

Behind one of the Larder cupboards there is as follows 4 pipes on the wall going up and down
These are down services from the the roof of the block of flats a water tank used to be attached next to where this main is.

There is one pipe this is what the problem is about 60 cm away from those pipes in other words in the actual kitchen its 28m copper and above it there is a join to about 35m copper.

At first we believed this was the down service but after realising it appears to be the water that is pumping up through all the flats into their water tanks and then into the main water tank on the roof. SoI have a water pipe in my property that does not serve me there is no stopcock at all within my property yet I am told I am responsible for it.

We want to re-route this pipe back to the wall.
Contacted Thames Water and they seemed quite confused about this pipe but did indeed find it on thier system.

What would be the best way to tackle this they told me that you could possibly try to turn this feed off from the ground but surely it's getting pumped up due to gravity? So would you not need to turn the pump off as well where would that be? Other option would be to freeze or to use an Aladdin clamp and basically to re-route the pipe back to the wall is there any issue removing this pipe I'm presuming the water will still be able to travel up the bends being about 60 cm back to the wall all and then out again 60 cm in?

Obviously for the duration of time there'll be no water being pumped up to the main storage tank I presume this will not affect the properties with the water tank in the house because the main tank upstairs has about 10000 l. And we only need 1h.

Happy to take pictures but meanwhile just wanted to pick everyone's brains and I was wondering if anyone has experienced this sort of job and are there any worries at all?

I'm pretty worried about cutting the pipe using an aladin clamp and freezing it because if something goes wrong there is no stopcock within my property to turn it off and water damage could be totally catastrophic

 

[exedon2]

I would strongly suggest you need to correctly identify what this pipe is.
Reducing in size from above suggest its dropping from above.
Freezing pipework of that size needs decent equipment and a absolute certainly that the pipework has no water flowing through it.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Box it in and forget about it you won’t reroute it easily

 

[king of pipes]

You need a professional here mate firstly to identify what's feeding what and secondly if what your planning is actually achievable you can't just turn off a water supply which serves other properties without planning and permission so go easy . Kop

 

[Pipeman222]

Hopefully this picture helps
. It's a horrible Pipe that's 60y old it looks rusted and it's my responsibility is dangerous as you can see it's sticking out about 60 cm into the kitchen totally in the way it needs to be rerouted.
I've got permission to do the Works.
Hopefully my previous post made sense when I was in the loft we turned off the stop cocks that was the Down service . We tested all above and below and they didnt have water meanwhile on the left area of this pipe we have water flushing out for half an hour now it doesn't Close anymore so we had to get a special fitting.

The fact the water never stopped made me call another plumber by the way I had three plumber's out here all of them gas registered.

Two out of the three said it's down service they were wrong one of them said is an old gas pipe.
Then I got another one and he told me this is the water going up into the tank in the loft which makes total sense I don't have a tank system anymore it was taken out before I got here.

You are legally allowed to turn water off as long as we notify the people 24 h notice.

The last guy who came seems to know his stuff he said he's done quite a few of these but obviously I want to check because this type is causing us a lot of problems.

Hoping to hear some positive news what's your thoughts now that you seen the picture

 

[Pipeman222]

Just to point out the picture doesn't probably show it very well but the pipes behind are the down service pipes they are not a problem they can be boxed in this one is sticking out 60 cm into the kitchen. Preventing us from creating a normal kitchen. The joining areas are old is my responsibility that it doesn't leak.
And quite frankly it can't just stay like that we all deserve the right to live in a normal property just because they done this 60 70 years ago doesn't mean it has to stay like that.

I also contacted Thames Water and they also says it's very strange they have found it on the grid and they're getting a specialist contact me it is leaking on the left so it is a hazard.

The current plumber said freezing is also an option along with a clamp.

Hope to hear something positive
Thx for help!

And yes certainly will use a professional the last chat seems pretty good as he pinpointed what the others couldn't we are 99.9% certain this is the water going up all the way through all the way through to the tank upstairs then it comes down via the other pipes which are the down service

 

[king of pipes]

It could quite easily be a rising main ? if so then it should be able to be isolated externally or even internally as it enters into your building ? If Thames water have found it on their system then I would request a site visit from one of their inspectors to investigate the possibility, the capped stopcock What did it connect to ? Is the pipework live can you hear water passing through the pipe at different times of the day? I've done load of this type of stuff in another life , if it needs rerouting it's doable with the correct planning the pipework will be imperial in size so the correct adaptors will need to be sourced, if tanks are still being supplied by this pipe then once isolated at a lower level it can be worked on if it's a down service from a tank ? Then again once the riser is isolated the tank can be drained and the pipe work altered most commercial installers use a crimp type system now for jointing pipework, fittings of all sizes are available , Any redundant pipework should be removed if it's is practically possible especially potable water such as a rising main no dead legs are allowed that means any length of pipe where water is trapped like the branch to your stop tap for instance now it's capped the water cannot be replaced this can cause bacterial growth within the pipework and is not healthy mention this when talking to Thames water. Best of luck please post back with a progress report . Regards kop

 

[Pipeman222]

Hello mate yes this is definitely live and bacteria build-up on the left side is definitely a good thing to say say that part is actually slightly leaking just so you know and it's a hazard waiting to happen because the join on the left is also corroded.

This is the pipe that feed the large water tank on the roof of the property.
Years ago it was connected to a water tank which supplies water to the bathroom and probably used to supply water to the kitchen as well.

So this water is getting pumped up 6 floors.
You're right there's probably a hexagon area outside where you have to turn this and then you can turn the water off to the tank and then you've got time to quickly re divert the pipe compression fittings etc using a plumber.

There is no internal stopcock for this.
However because the pipe is my responsibility I am going to fit my own stopcock somewhere
In the event of something going wrong which won't I'll be able to turn this obviously I'll be shutting water off to the whole building but I can prevent a catastrophe.

I called up the management organisation and they told me if the pipe is in your house is your responsibility and I told him it's leaking I didn't tell them how much but if it was leaking a lot it's still my responsibility so that's what I'm going to do.
They are going to use the angle bends to take it back up against the wall using the correct olive

Am I right to think freezing it's is probably risky?
And we better turn it off

 

[Ric2013]

If the pipe is serving the communal tank which serves the whole building (and, presumably, fire reels etc) then it is partly serving you and you would be responsible for a part of the cost of maintenance (along with the other flats, presumably).

Realistically it looks to be copper and the slight leakage is unlikely to get worse, though, being unsupported and exposed now the larder has been removed, it's now vulnerable to being knocked. Obviously it cannot stay exposed and unsupported.

I think the point of law is that the service has a right to pass through your flat but that there is no reason you cannot re-route it at your expense and with due consideration of what (if any) disturbance the temporary isolation will cause your neighbours. There should be an isolator somewhere between the water board's underground mains and this pipe. If there isn't, the water board either presumably owns and maintains that pipe (which I much doubt) or they will find their own underground isolator for you so you can have the work carried out.

Regarding freezing, it only works if you can stop the water flow in the first place, and, in any case, my inclination is to agree with others that freezing is not a sensible way to tackle this job.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Problem is you would need to get above and below to alter this pipe unless your happy with a 4” boxing top and bottom

 

[snowhead]

Firstly the Management company are wrong in saying the pipe is the responsibility of the individual flat owner.
It's a common service, it's the joint liability of all the owners but for the management company to sort out, just as the tank(s) are or the stairs or the roof. etc. and bill owners accordingly.
If any individual owner wants alterations within their flat then the cost would be for them alone.

Re altering the pipe, it's not a job for a couple of plumbers, it needs a company with resources for if / when it goes wrong.

As someone else above, to me the source would appear to be from above given the pipe size reduction, but the pipe may have been repurposed in the past.
Unless you've measured and confirmed it's metric I would have said it's imperial pipe, metric came out in 1971 / 72, I bought a new house in 1972 and it was a combination of imperial and metric pipe and fittings.

The job may go without a hitch but here is a list of some potential issues;

When the supply is restored all the crap that's been sitting happilly on the pipe walls and fittings for years will suddenly decide it's going to let go and find it's way into the tank and into any flats that are using a connection off that pipe.
That's a guarantee, been there done that on risers.
It will need disconnecting from the tank and flushing out before final reconnection or you'll need to clean out the tank and possibly pay for repairs on appliances in the flats, like blocked fill vlaves or water softeners.

If the pipe isn't sleeved in the floor above or below it may be corroded and break off, that'll mean having the floor core drilled, possibly both above and below, subject to structural engineers approval.

If it doesn't break in the floor when it's altered, it may start leaking later.

If there is any loss of water provision to other flats you may end up with a large combined hotel bill and claims for other consequential losses.

If it is pumped the pump will need turning off and if as old as the building may not restart or may leak.

Giving 24hr notice is one thing, getting everyone to agree to it is another, unless it's an emergency.

 

[Pipeman222]

If the pipe is serving the communal tank which serves the whole building (and, presumably, fire reels etc) then it is partly serving you and you would be responsible for a part of the cost of maintenance (along with the other flats, presumably).

Realistically it looks to be copper and the slight leakage is unlikely to get worse, though, being unsupported and exposed now the larder has been removed, it's now vulnerable to being knocked. Obviously it cannot stay exposed and unsupported.

I think the point of law is that the service has a right to pass through your flat but that there is no reason you cannot re-route it at your expense and with due consideration of what (if any) disturbance the temporary isolation will cause your neighbours. There should be an isolator somewhere between the water board's underground mains and this pipe. If there isn't, the water board either presumably owns and maintains that pipe (which I much doubt) or they will find their own underground isolator for you so you can have the work carried out.

Regarding freezing, it only works if you can stop the water flow in the first place, and, in any case, my inclination is to agree with others that freezing is not a sensible way to tackle this job.

Ok so I spoke to Thames Water they told me they are aware of this pipe and a specialist he spoke to me says there is an isolator valve somewhere in the ground and he identified somewhere to the left of the bin area.

The pipe is exposed and is dangerous so it needs to go. That's reassuring what you're saying it looks like we are going to find isolator and reroute the problem. Until I saw the next post

 

[Pipeman222]

Firstly the Management company are wrong in saying the pipe is the responsibility of the individual flat owner.
It's a common service, it's the joint liability of all the owners but for the management company to sort out, just as the tank(s) are or the stairs or the roof. etc. and bill owners accordingly.
If any individual owner wants alterations within their flat then the cost would be for them alone.

Re altering the pipe, it's not a job for a couple of plumbers, it needs a company with resources for if / when it goes wrong.

As someone else above, to me the source would appear to be from above given the pipe size reduction, but the pipe may have been repurposed in the past.
Unless you've measured and confirmed it's metric I would have said it's imperial pipe, metric came out in 1971 / 72, I bought a new house in 1972 and it was a combination of imperial and metric pipe and fittings.

The job may go without a hitch but here is a list of some potential issues;

When the supply is restored all the crap that's been sitting happilly on the pipe walls and fittings for years will suddenly decide it's going to let go and find it's way into the tank and into any flats that are using a connection off that pipe.
That's a guarantee, been there done that on risers.
It will need disconnecting from the tank and flushing out before final reconnection or you'll need to clean out the tank and possibly pay for repairs on appliances in the flats, like blocked fill vlaves or water softeners.

If the pipe isn't sleeved in the floor above or below it may be corroded and break off, that'll mean having the floor core drilled, possibly both above and below, subject to structural engineers approval.

If it doesn't break in the floor when it's altered, it may start leaking later.

If there is any loss of water provision to other flats you may end up with a large combined hotel bill and claims for other consequential losses.

If it is pumped the pump will need turning off and if as old as the building may not restart or may leak.

Giving 24hr notice is one thing, getting everyone to agree to it is another, unless it's an emergency.

So this is a little bit disheartening to see so just so you know I have not got a tank but people above and below me do but keep in mind this pipe goes upstairs it goes into their tank but then there is water coming down from the main tank I don't exactly know how it works but I know that this pipe feeds every single tank in the house apart from mine and then it goes upstairs to the loft and then it comes down again so you're saying if we cut the pipe about 3 inches above the ground and 3 inches below dove ceiling you're saying that it's going to cause problems for everyone's tank .?

I have no choice but to do it it's my responsibility and everyone else has tank is their responsibility

 

[Pipeman222]

Firstly the Management company are wrong in saying the pipe is the responsibility of the individual flat owner.
It's a common service, it's the joint liability of all the owners but for the management company to sort out, just as the tank(s) are or the stairs or the roof. etc. and bill owners accordingly.
If any individual owner wants alterations within their flat then the cost would be for them alone.

Re altering the pipe, it's not a job for a couple of plumbers, it needs a company with resources for if / when it goes wrong.

As someone else above, to me the source would appear to be from above given the pipe size reduction, but the pipe may have been repurposed in the past.
Unless you've measured and confirmed it's metric I would have said it's imperial pipe, metric came out in 1971 / 72, I bought a new house in 1972 and it was a combination of imperial and metric pipe and fittings.

The job may go without a hitch but here is a list of some potential issues;

When the supply is restored all the crap that's been sitting happilly on the pipe walls and fittings for years will suddenly decide it's going to let go and find it's way into the tank and into any flats that are using a connection off that pipe.
That's a guarantee, been there done that on risers.
It will need disconnecting from the tank and flushing out before final reconnection or you'll need to clean out the tank and possibly pay for repairs on appliances in the flats, like blocked fill vlaves or water softeners.

If the pipe isn't sleeved in the floor above or below it may be corroded and break off, that'll mean having the floor core drilled, possibly both above and below, subject to structural engineers approval.

If it doesn't break in the floor when it's altered, it may start leaking later.

If there is any loss of water provision to other flats you may end up with a large combined hotel bill and claims for other consequential losses.

If it is pumped the pump will need turning off and if as old as the building may not restart or may leak.

Giving 24hr notice is one thing, getting everyone to agree to it is another, unless it's an emergency.

Hello sorry could you please be so kind to elaborate a little bit I don't know what to do are you saying that if I read over this pipe I made damage everyone but I need to do it what do I do how do I get around this?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I would say it’s a feed pipe from the tanks on the roof to everyone’s hot water cylinder