Compression joint leak hassle.

[axzed]

Hi all.
I have a leak that I just can't cure.
My mains stopcock is in the concrete floor in a 9x9" hole forcing me to use a tap spanner
It decided to leak from below the input comp. nut.
There is hardly any clearance to drop the nut down to get behind what may be an olive or a flange.
After a few futile attempts I noticed the first few threads on the tap were split.
I dug out an old one, unsiezed it and greased it up.
I have tried PTF & Bossand even fibre & rubber washers!
I am tightening as much as I can but it keeps slipping off, though I reckon I applied plenty of torque.
A simple problem but I have made 10 or more attempts!
Am I missing something?
What is the basic principle with these?
If it was an olive and no danger of disrupting the lead seal, I would be tempted to tap it up.
If I could get behing the olive, I would pack it with TPF. (I have tried this with tweezers)
HELP PLZ

 

[Puddle]

Well you could try this and that but you are not going to get a joint you can trust even if you stop leak and make tight joint for now,you are looking for an easy way out but sometimes there is not one,get your hammer and chisel out and make a bigger area around joint and redo as required,removing olive and if pipe ok fit new or cut back pipe end if damaged to much by over tightened olive and redo from there

 

[axzed]

Thanks.
So you are saying that the seal is the olive/tap joint & not the nut/olive?
Can it be, & what if it is a flange?
Regardless of the working space I can't see how I can prise the olive off as the nut will not back off enough.
How delicate is the lead to copper joint?
cheers.

 

[WHPES]

Remove the nut and olive. As stated you may need to enlarge the area in the concrete.

Sometimes fittings have a different length of pipe sticking out past the olive and if the olive has stuck on the pipe that may be your problem.

The seal is made between the olive and the chamfered part on the body of the tap. A couple of turns of PTFE around the olive will sometimes help.

 

[axzed]

THANKS
" different length of pipe". That's why I wanted to tap the olive up a little.
So I take it, it ain't gonna be anything other than an olive?
Thanks for the 'seal' enlightenment which becomes obvious if it is discernable as a convex olive edge - my vision is sad.
I never known people so eager to whip out their tools and start banging away.
Ta.

 

[WHPES]

The thing you've got to remember is that us pros have power chisels on our breaker drills and it takes no time at all to open up a hole in masonry, whereas if all you've got is a hammer and chisel, then you're going to get a good workout!

 

[stevetheplumber]

if its an underground stopcock it will not be an olive but a union of some sort most probably with a leather washer
if you can run the nut back you could try ptfe or ls or both doubt if youll change it in a 9x9 hole but you might be lucky and pull it up enough to get valve out

 

[axzed]

Sheesh, bach to square one.
So, is the seal the rear of the nut against the union flange?
As I said, I tried inserting PTF with tweezers and Boss to no avail.
Should the washer be in the same gap and is now irreplaceable?
"you might be lucky and pull it up enough to get valve out" er, ? You lost me there 'valve'. Pull what up? Please explain.
I guessed the hole dimensions. I was correct....for the trap door cover rebate,..... but not for the actual well....7x7!!!

I do have a Kango, put not a 'power chisel' of which, I've never heard.

 

[WHPES]

Laymans speak for a Kango.

 

[axzed]

Hi again.
I am now confused and seemingly left with no other option than to repeat that which I was originally attempting.
Please answer my questions and confirm any correct diagnosis.
Is it a union?
"So, is the seal made by the rear of the nut against the union flange?
As I said, I tried inserting PTF with tweezers and Boss to no avail.
Should the washer be in the same gap and isit now irreplaceable?
So I just add more PTFE?
Can I use an alternative?
THANKS

 

[charitynjw]

"How delicate is the lead to copper joint?"

Could you describe this?

& is incoming mains pipe lead?

 

[axzed]

Hi, Yes

 

[WHPES]

Post a photo. You know the old saying "a picture says a thousand words"

 

[axzed]

OK - Tuesday.
But what is the critical seal for a union joint?

 

[WHPES]

We'll wait until you've posted a photo otherwise we may be advising you wrongly as it's not completely clear from your description.

If you are trying to get a new joint onto a lead pipe, the only way is to cut back the lead pipe to it being sound and fit a Philmac universal fitting or a leadlock.

 

[axzed]

Hi,
It's a lead pipe with a compression joint to receive the stopcock. It could be an olive or a fixed union 'ferrule.' I can't stop it leaking from behind the 'nut'. If it is a union, where is the critical seal that I need to 'make' and how can I accomplish this as I have already pushed in PTF and Boss?
I do not wish to dismantle it again just to take a photo, knowing it will still leak as I am tired of repeatedly doing this and I am using the street stopcock which is leaking and may soon become unservicable!
cheers

 

[WHPES]

If the street stopcock starts leaking it is the responsibility of the water board to maintain it.

I would get a pro to come in and sort out your lead pipe union if you are having difficulty.

 

[axzed]

It's only a small leak in the street but it fills the well. They have been told that it has broken months ago! I have jammed a socket on it and use a long wrench bar.
I am only asking for your empirical knowledge here to save time and effort- I am quite capable of applying it.
thanks

 

[axzed]

That photo really helped - thanks guys.
I will bite the bullet and find my own solution.
nice.
THANKS

 

[WHPES]

Just keep phoning them up until they get sick and come and fix the street stopcock.

I thought you were meaning that the incoming pipe was made of lead but from the picture I see that you were meaning that it is copper with lead soldered joints.

You need to get a new stopcock, undo the old one, remove the olives and nuts and fit the new stopcock with a couple of turns of ptfe round the olives.

 

[axzed]

That is the overhauled replacement stopcock and after many attempts, using PTFE & Boss, I cannot stop the leak from below the lower nut.
That's what my whole query is about.
Is it a union, not olives and if so, where do I pack it, as I have tried behind the union/olive?
I can't back off the nut enough to see it.
Are more turns of PTFE counter productive?

 

[franz]

if you cant get to it with two hands thats tricky at best. best bet it to open the floor a bit ,or your just killing yourself struggling.

 

[WHPES]

Open it up and expose some fresh pipework. It looks like it is stepped down from 22mm so get down below this step and fit a new compression coupling then a new section of copper.

Be careful not to damage the pipe when chiselling.

 

[NickH]

Is it just me or does that stopcock look like its on backwards ?

If you've changed it presumably you can get it out of the way and have a look at the olive. You can get an olive puller which should be able to pull it off with the nut.
The incomimg pipework is copper so I would try to solder a new piece of 15mm onto the old piece and get a new stopcock higher up (out of the hole).

Bail the water out of the hole and use a length of thin plastic tubing to suck the water out of the pipework, clean the pipes carefully and use a yorkshire (solder ring) fitting to make the joint.

Can you solder ?

 

[fuzzy]

Thanks.
So you are saying that the seal is the olive/tap joint & not the nut/olive?
Can it be, & what if it is a flange?
Regardless of the working space I can't see how I can prise the olive off as the nut will not back off enough.
How delicate is the lead to copper joint?
cheers.

dont ptfe the thread(if this is what you are doing). My dad did this on a compression joint once, he did it 3 or 4 times then called me. i took off 3 rolls of ptfe from the thread, put a small amount round the olive and tightened up just a bit and hey presto never a problem since!


people see the thread on a compression and presume that is the joint, that only pushes the olive against the pipe and fitting,t he easier it is to tighten the better fixing you will get

that is the overhauled replacement stopcock and after many attempts, using ptfe & boss, i cannot stop the leak from below the lower nut.
That's what my whole query is about.
Is it a union, not olives and if so, where do i pack it, as i have tried behind the union/olive?
I can't back off the nut enough to see it.
Are more turns of ptfe counter productive?

no ptfe on the thread if olive or union

 

[pete m l]

sounds like if you have old lead mains then its time to run a new plastic main complete from the road and do a proper job rather than keep trying to bodge it up

 

[fuzzy]

sounds like if you have old lead mains then its time to run a new plastic main complete from the road and do a proper job rather than keep trying to bodge it up

stop spoiling our fun!

 

[pete m l]

oh I forgot this was a fun site try putting a hose pipe and jubilee clip on that will stop the leak

 

[axzed]

Thanks all.
I could just move house too.
"my whole query is about.
Is it a union, not an olive and if so, where do i pack it, as i have tried behind the union/olive?
I can't back off the nut enough to see what it is."
Early on in this posting I was told that as it is a stopcock, it can't be an olive, but a union & maybe a leather washer!
Well, I guess I can deduce from all your references to olives that this aint necessarily true.
I initially connected with minimal PTF but later noticed lots of it already behind the olive/union that I tweezered out & later back in.

 

[moony]

mate youve tried most things a diyer would, as a professional (i think) haha, i would dig out the hole, explore the pipe work a bit deeper down, if lead then use a lead lock on a fresh piece of lead, run 15mm up out of hole and fit a new stop tap. You can mess around with the olive, union or pipework all you want and may find you seal it, but this is the incoming mains and ive seen too much damage to property from poorly fitted stop tap or lead lock to warrent you risking this.

its a simple job for a professional, prob cost no more than 60-80 quid and it would come with piece of mind and a more suitably located stop tap. I dont know how much time you,ve spent but i would certainly think of getting hold of someone who can come and have a proper look at it.

if its a olive and youve packed it out with ptfe and its still leaking, then there could be a fault with the fitting requiring a new one to be fitted - the lads have tried to help on here but its not as easy as saying do this do that and bobs your uncle. hence the 4 year training required.