Customer Expectations and “Know It All’s”

[Minster]

I'm almost afraid to ask but are people undertaking work without a written contract? No contract then it becomes verbal then it becomes I said she said. Same applies to supply of goods and the law. If I supply hardware to a customer, I am the seller and I am the buyer from my supplier which means consumer protection laws apply to me as the seller. If the customer argued the goods were faulty (6 months) then I have to replace of refund at my cost and then try and make a claim against my supplier in which case my first admision is that I resold the goods and in doing so, relinquished rights.

We have a terms of trade contract which is supplied at the same time as the quote and the quote says "by paying a deposit the customer accepts our terms of trade".

 

[Minster]

Oh dear.***
What is unfair about these contracts.

-Plumber provides quotation.
-Customer accepts quotation and pays deposit as per quotation.
-Plumber does work as per quotation.
-Customer wants to review pricing of quoted works after job done.

There doesn't seem to be any question of the standard of works done - just wanting a price reduction.

The customer also has the right to get other quotes from other plumbers.
They also have the right to choose who they want to do the works from the quotations

Maybe they choose the plumber who they think will be the easiest to rip off at the end of the job

You've got it in one, swines are happy with the work and happy to put you through hoops but once they have the upper hand ie the work is done and they have all the pricey materials installed they want to negotiate the cost down...

 

[hometech]

We have a terms of trade contract which is supplied at the same time as the quote and the quote says "by paying a deposit the customer accepts our terms of trade".

so you have provided a hard copy of the terms (if it were digital they can argue they were not able to access and read them) so it is considered binding.

 

[hometech]

There is another aspect of course, which is the terms and conditions of the customer towards your business and once you have taken a deposit it will be impossible to implement terms that were not already explicitly agreed before you accepted the deposit. It cuts both ways. For example, having provided a deposit, can they cancel? if they cancel, do you state you can keep a percentage of the deposit? All agreements need to made made in writing and before you accept any payment.
You change a tap in an expensive bath. They provide the tap, you charge £20 for example. You drop the tap into the bath, ruined a £1000 bath which they state you are responsible for as you caused the damage. Even with insurance, which I'm certain you all have, the insurance company will look for ways not to pay and will first refer back to the terms and conditions you both agreed upon before the work was started or payment made.

 

[Minster]

There is another aspect of course, which is the terms and conditions of the customer towards your business and once you have taken a deposit it will be impossible to implement terms that were not already explicitly agreed before you accepted the deposit. It cuts both ways. For example, having provided a deposit, can they cancel? if they cancel, do you state you can keep a percentage of the deposit? All agreements need to made made in writing and before you accept any payment.
You change a tap in an expensive bath. They provide the tap, you charge £20 for example. You drop the tap into the bath, ruined a £1000 bath which they state you are responsible for as you caused the damage. Even with insurance, which I'm certain you all have, the insurance company will look for ways not to pay and will first refer back to the terms and conditions you both agreed upon before the work was started or payment made.

Deposit is refundable if we have any unforeseen reason not to perform the contract and refundable less any materials/expenses not able to be returned in the case the customer cancels. I would consider it a fair contract and to stand up in law it needs to be fair.

 

[hometech]

Deposit is refundable if we have any unforeseen reason not to perform the contract and refundable less any materials/expenses not able to be returned in the case the customer cancels. I would consider it a fair contract and to stand up in law it needs to be fair.

So how do you handle the legal situation of where you are the seller of a combi boiler and consumer rights to have it replaced or refunded should it malfunction within 6 months (no arguments whatsoever) and covering at least a year that covers replacement or repair. We provide a shopping list for costly equipment they they buy it and where we purchase on behalf of the customer, we use the customers details for the purchase. Do plumbers become the seller of combi's rather than just being installers?

 

[Minster]

So how do you handle the legal situation of where you are the seller of a combi boiler and consumer rights to have it replaced or refunded should it malfunction within 6 months (no arguments whatsoever) and covering at least a year that covers replacement or repair. We provide a shopping list for costly equipment they they buy it and where we purchase on behalf of the customer, we use the customers details for the purchase. Do plumbers become the seller of combi's rather than just being installers?

We go out FOC to inspect the boiler, confirm it is defective and then call out the manufacturer to repair under the warranty.

 

[hometech]

We go out FOC to inspect the boiler, confirm it is defective and then call out the manufacturer to repair under the warranty.

and if this happens within the first 6 months and you have an informed customer, consumer law demands you have to provide a refund if requested....if you refused (outlined as above) and ended up in court having contravened consumer laws, what would your defence be?

 

[Minster]

and if this happens within the first 6 months and you have an informed customer, consumer law demands you have to provide a refund if requested....if you refused (outlined as above) and ended up in court having contravened consumer laws, what would your defence be?

We may not have a defence, we'd cross that bridge it if happened. To be honest, nothing is ever straightforward and if we were to worry about that scenario there'd be no point in our trading or any other heating firm offering their services either! Seems in this industry you're on a hiding to nothing no matter how reputable, hard-working and honest you are!

Out of curiosity what would YOU do?

I looked up the law "If a product develops a fault within the first six months after purchase, it's assumed it has been present since the time of purchase. ... If a repair or replacement has failed, you have the right to reject the goods for a full refund or price reduction."

 

[hometech]

We may not have a defence, we'd cross that bridge it if happened. To be honest, nothing is ever straightforward and if we were to worry about that scenario there'd be no point in our trading or any other heating firm offering their services either! Seems in this industry you're on a hiding to nothing no matter how reputable, hard-working and honest you are!

Out of curiosity what would YOU do?

I don't ever allow my company to ever get into that situation, that would be irresponsible and stupid. Imagine the hit on an 8K 70 inch TV that was defective and the client just asking for money back. I'd get it replaced by the supplier of course but then I'd have a an expensive bit of kit looking for a home. I have clients who pay large sums of money for automation in their expensive homes. They demand the best, I provide the best and as such, I conduct the business with the utmost professionalism and attention to detail. I have a duty of care to the business and the clients and myself to take the time to understand the consequences of not accepting the consequences.

 

[Minster]

I don't ever allow my company to ever get into that situation, that would be irresponsible and stupid. Imagine the hit on an 8K 70 inch TV that was defective and the client just asking for money back. I'd get it replaced by the supplier of course but then I'd have a an expensive bit of kit looking for a home. I have clients who pay large sums of money for automation in their expensive homes. They demand the best, I provide the best and as such, I conduct the business with the utmost professionalism and attention to detail. I have a duty of care to the business and the clients and myself to take the time to understand the consequences of not accepting the consequences.

I don't really understand your point... We supply and install boilers (amongst other services), if they are faulty we either repair, ask the manufacturer to repair or we would replace at cost to ourselves, so how do YOU avoid this obligation??? No point in telling me you don't allow yourself to get into this position, how do you avoid it would be the answer I seek.

 

[Chuck]

and if this happens within the first 6 months and you have an informed customer, consumer law demands you have to provide a refund if requested.

The rights are to a repair or replacement. The entitlement to a refund kicks in only if this has been unsuccessfully attempted. I have never known a case where the manufacturer has failed to be able to repair or replace a recently installed boiler.

 

[Minster]

The rights are to a repair or replacement. The entitlement to a refund kicks in only if this has been unsuccessfully attempted. I have never known a case where the manufacturer has failed to be able to repair or replace a recently installed boiler.

Exactly my point, repair or replacement which is what we would and have done.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

I've had a faulty Vaillant before, which the manufacture personally replaced themselves at no cost to me.

 

[hometech]

I don't really understand your point... We supply and install boilers (amongst other services), if they are faulty we either repair, ask the manufacturer to repair or we would replace at cost to ourselves, so how do YOU avoid this obligation??? No point in telling me you don't allow yourself to get into this position, how do you avoid it would be the answer I seek.

if its faulty within 6 months its classed as faulty from new and a consumer has the immediate option of a full refund from the seller..you. That is the bit your missing it would seem. So by having the consumer buy the expensive equipment themselves i.e. in their own name, you are hands up free and not your problem should they demand a full refund. They could easily argue for a refund on the installation cost as well, then you are loosing hand over fist. By structuring the legal contract so that you are the labour supplier, then only issues you face are against the quality of the install. If you feel the need to make margin on a boiler then you accept the consequences of being the seller.
These are no semantics, this is the law and it would seem that you are totally ignorant of it and the consequences it has. Ask a solicitor if you know one.