Customer Expectations and “Know It All’s”

[Minster]

This is probably just to vent but I wonder if anyone else is experiencing customers accepting quotes, having the work done and then refusing to pay despite being satisfied with the work.

It‘s happened to us four times in as many weeks now and the “excuse” is they have costed the materials themselves from internet prices and then way under calculated material costs and come up with extortionate labour charges (by their calculations) and begrudge paying what they have calculated as stupid money for our labour charge? They want the invoice reduced to a “sensible” labour charge before they will settle the bill. All this based on their inexperienced rough calculations!

Anyone got any words of advice? Thanks.

 

[snowhead]

Present them with a breakdown of what it takes to be a tradesperson, not the monetry side .

Some but not all,

Apprenticeship / Training costs
Updating training
Registrations for Gas / Unvented etc
Cost of vehicle and maintenance etc
Cost of tools and replacement of
Costs of employing staff
Accountancy costs
Premises / storage costs.
Waste disposal registration and costs
Time spent obtaining materials
Time spent quoting for unsuccessful jobs
Loss of income due to unpaid bills
Time spent dealing with non paying customers and those who think they know how to run a plumbing business for less than it actually costs.

 

[oz-plumber]

Negotiate or go legal.
They accepted your quote, so they must have been happy with it at the time.

Do you provide quotes for the whole job or do you charge to assess the job and then charge per hour / cost plus for the works.

Seems a little out there to have 4 customers in 4 weeks do the exact same thing to you.

You could also just have a knob list of customers.

 

[SimonG]

Simple, no more explanations from you to them, they accepted price, payment in x days or collection action commences at their expense.

I take a deposit for new customers, materials plus my 30% mark up.

 

[Minster]

Yes, they are happy with the quote at the time of accepting, it's only when the "man down the pub says his great aunt's sisters boyfriend had the same work done five years ago for X amount" that they then get the calculator out and guestimate the exact materials based on what they think the boiler was etc. etc. and how much pipe and fittings were used and deduce that our labour charge is not as specified (well it couldn't be could it because the materials aren't the reason for the big bill) so we must be overcharging and therefore they dispute the invoice.

Yes, we quote for the whole job and we take a deposit upfront, its the balance they want adjusting after the work is done for the reasons I've specified.

Think we are just being unlucky at the moment, mind you, I just heard on the radio that pubs have had hundreds of bookings just not turn up because people have booked multiple places on the off chance they feel like going out only to change their minds, just shows the type of people who walk the earth with us!

 

[Minster]

I take a deposit for new customers, materials plus my 30% mark up.

One of the four querying and refusing to pay was a customer that we've practically rebuilt his entire home from a heating/plumbing viewpoint, one that has given us glowing reviews and paid all the other invoices without quibble but then had kitchen fitters in who obviously said: "how much for a Worcester boiler"????

 

[Aquarius]

Maybe get them to provide materials in future? It won‘t help with the kitchen fitters making comments like that. People like that ruining the industry imo.

 

[Minster]

Maybe get them to provide materials in future? It won‘t help with the kitchen fitters making comments like that. People like that ruining the industry imo.

If we ask them to supply materials it gets complicated as firstly we’d need to give them a shopping list and secondly to save money they’d likely get something inferior which wouldn’t fit properly and cost us wasted time and effort but thanks for the suggestion anyway

 

[Chuck]

guestimate the exact materials based on what they think the boiler was etc. etc. and how much pipe and fittings were used and deduce that our labour charge is not as specified (well it couldn't be could it because the materials aren't the reason for the big bill) so we must be overcharging and therefore they dispute the invoice.

Unless your quote is very badly drafted, they get to suck it up and pay the quoted total for the specified work.

OTOH, you might want to review how you set out and write your quotations. E.g. in some cases you might just want to put 'labour £500' rather than 'labour 20hrs @ £25/hr' or 'labour 4hrs @ 125/hr'. These all add up to the same total but send different messages. Are you marking up the cost of materials because you are trying to keep your labour rate down? If so, perhaps you are overdoing it and need to increase your labour rate.

Personally, I think people are happier paying the higher labour charge than a big mark up provided the standard of work justifies it, which I assume it does in your case. "He was expensive but gave me a reasonable price and good warranty for the boiler and the work was excellent." is a better story to leave someone with than "He charged me £2k for a boiler I could have bought online for £1k."

 

[exedon2]

This happened to one of my subcontractors last year they discounted a Invoice 'just to get paid ' then it happened regularly.
Turned out first one had put it on social media 'use this guy you can get a big chuck knocked of bill'
We always quote supply and fix never separate materials/labour also always make clear what is not included.
Also make clear that if they accept the quotation they also accept our terms and conditions.

 

[Aquarius]

Turned out first one had put it on social media 'use this guy you can get a big chuck knocked of bill'

Although social media helps in one way, I think it’s detrimental in another

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Although social media helps in one way, I think it’s detrimental in another

Social media is just the worst. Everyone on their want's someone NOW and want's to pay nothing. In about 7 years I think i've had one good enquiry, which was down to a recommendation. Everyone else messaging is usually a waste of time. Hate to say it, but it's the way it is.

 

[WC1]

Sounds like op is giving an inch and they're taking a mile. In the nicest possible way I suggest trying to sharpen your sense of which customers to take and which to leave. If you're not confident of getting paid in full and on time, think twice. Do you really want to trust that person with your livelihood. There's plenty of other stuff you could be doing to push your business forward instead and getting more enquiries from which you can take your pick. Life's too short imo. Good luck

 

[Murdoch]

If the customer accepted your estimate off quite by email then that's the agreed price.
Don't give breakdowns, unless previously agreed

Keep your reminders polite and civil then after 30 days send them a final demand buy email and post

 

[Ric2013]

Next time I buy a British Rail ticket to Wales from SE England (if we're all still alive) I shall demand to see a breakdown of how much it costs to run and maintain 30 year-old trains and then haggle down to what I think it should cost to run a train.

For what it's worth, my MOTHER used to complain I was expensive compared with her expectations - then she realised I turn up on time, do the job well and the problem is then sorted for good and that I cost half what the numpties her letting agent uses charge.

The customer needs to pay up and shut up: it was a quoted price and he or she is happy with the work. You'll lose their custom (possibly) and they'll pass the message on to their cheapskate friends. Do not lower the price or the word will go around that you'll do this!

 

[hometech]

I'm almost afraid to ask but are people undertaking work without a written contract? No contract then it becomes verbal then it becomes I said she said. Same applies to supply of goods and the law. If I supply hardware to a customer, I am the seller and I am the buyer from my supplier which means consumer protection laws apply to me as the seller. If the customer argued the goods were faulty (6 months) then I have to replace of refund at my cost and then try and make a claim against my supplier in which case my first admision is that I resold the goods and in doing so, relinquished rights.

 

[hometech]

Next time I buy a British Rail ticket to Wales from SE England (if we're all still alive) I shall demand to see a breakdown of how much it costs to run and maintain 30 year-old trains and then haggle down to what I think it should cost to run a train.

For what it's worth, my MOTHER used to complain I was expensive compared with her expectations - then she realised I turn up on time, do the job well and the problem is then sorted for good and that I cost half what the numpties her letting agent uses charge.

The customer needs to pay up and shut up: it was a quoted price and he or she is happy with the work. You'll lose their custom (possibly) and they'll pass the message on to their cheapskate friends. Do not lower the price or the word will go around that you'll do this!

You can access that information right now, its public domain data. What happens when you buy a ticket is a legal process. You agree to the terms and conditions of travel (refunds, delays, transfers). You have no claim should you miss a flight because of a train for example. My suggestion is that you do what every other business/retailer does, creates a contract. Why should plumbers think then can operate outside of consumer law and still insist on the protections of said laws? Just issue a contract, its not complicated by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Murdoch]

You can access that information right now, its public domain data. What happens when you buy a ticket is a legal process. You agree to the terms and conditions of travel (refunds, delays, transfers). You have no claim should you miss a flight because of a train for example. My suggestion is that you do what every other business/retailer does, creates a contract. Why should plumbers think then can operate outside of consumer law and still insist on the protections of said laws? Just issue a contract, its not complicated by any stretch of the imagination.

Not sure I agree with that. Issue a contract for each and every job - absolutely not imho

Just imagine the break down including a cost for issuing a contract!

 

[hometech]

Not sure I agree with that. Issue a contract for each and every job - absolutely not imho

Just imagine the break down including a cost for issuing a contract!

like I suggested, you cannot operate outside of the law and expect the law to protect you. I make changes to peoples houses with home automation and information systems. They spend lots of money and homes have to be planned to minute detail. Managing expectation is the single most important aspect of every job. "oh, I thought it would do XYZ or but I did not want ABC so why am I paying for that. When its logged (which you must do to provide a quote) you have your own T&C's printed on the back. You make it subject to (so finding something really bad can be a contract breaker). It might also be the fact that I deal with large homes and people who live in these large homes are switched on (that's why they have large homes) so they always demand a contract. I give you £15k and hope that you do what I wanted! Not that simple is it LOL

 

[Murdoch]

like I suggested, you cannot operate outside of the law and expect the law to protect you. I make changes to peoples houses with home automation and information systems. They spend lots of money and homes have to be planned to minute detail. Managing expectation is the single most important aspect of every job. "oh, I thought it would do XYZ or but I did not want ABC so why am I paying for that. When its logged (which you must do to provide a quote) you have your own T&C's printed on the back. You make it subject to (so finding something really bad can be a contract breaker). It might also be the fact that I deal with large homes and people who live in these large homes are switched on (that's why they have large homes) so they always demand a contract. I give you £15k and hope that you do what I wanted! Not that simple is it LOL

What is simple is a well worded estimate or quote listing clearly the deliverables and any thing that isn't included.

 

[hometech]

What is simple is a well worded estimate or quote listing clearly the deliverables and any thing that isn't included.

well there you go....now that sounds a lot like a written contract LOL

 

[Murdoch]

well there you go....now that sounds a lot like a written contract LOL

Best you read the op again because he said he writes quotes

 

[hometech]

Best you read the op again because he said he writes quotes

but the important difference (a quotation is like "invitation to treat") once you have a signature from the customer (and you of course) the quotation becomes a contract. If it's not signed off then its still a proposal for work. Do you understand?

 

[oz-plumber]

but the important difference (a quotation is like "invitation to treat") once you have a signature from the customer (and you of course) the quotation becomes a contract. If it's not signed off then its still a proposal for work. Do you understand?

I would have thought that providing a quotation and receiving a deposit from a customer would bind a contract.

Sending through a deposit would mean that you have read and understood the quotation.

I would argue that's as good as a a signature, if not better.

You could argue about whether it's your signature or not, but not when you transfer money from you account to another account.

Saying that, there are people that will never pay the full amount and know what a hassle it is for you to chase them for the remaining amount.

 

[hometech]

I would have thought that providing a quotation and receiving a deposit from a customer would bind a contract.

Sending through a deposit would mean that you have read and understood the quotation.

I would argue that's as good as a a signature, if not better.

You could argue about whether it's your signature or not, but not when you transfer money from you account to another account.

Saying that, there are people that will never pay the full amount and know what a hassle it is for you to chase them for the remaining amount.

Oh dear, no wonder this is common place with plumbers. A contract is not a contract if its unfair. So I could sign.agree accept BUT challenge on it being unfair (and forced to accept unfair terms) Unless you make claim to an associated event (by sending part payment you accept to be bound by our T&C's, in accepting our quote you.... for example). You don't need a signature to have a binding contract, A shop does not have to give you a receipt, you do not need a receipt to return damaged goods etc. The main point is "you could argue" and that's what it will come down to in a small claims court. Then its the best solicitor wins... looks like there should be a thread on the basics of contract law...you lot seem to be way over exposed to claw backs and counter claims.

 

[Murdoch]

but the important difference (a quotation is like "invitation to treat") once you have a signature from the customer (and you of course) the quotation becomes a contract. If it's not signed off then its still a proposal for work. Do you understand?

I don't understand you

The op sent a quote or estimate and the customer accepted by email as I understand it so that's the agreement.

 

[hometech]

I don't understand you

The op sent a quote or estimate and the customer accepted by email as I understand it so that's the agreement.

great opening defense in the small claims court...LOL

 

[Minster]

Unless your quote is very badly drafted, they get to suck it up and pay the quoted total for the specified work.

OTOH, you might want to review how you set out and write your quotations. E.g. in some cases you might just want to put 'labour £500' rather than 'labour 20hrs @ £25/hr' or 'labour 4hrs @ 125/hr'. These all add up to the same total but send different messages. Are you marking up the cost of materials because you are trying to keep your labour rate down? If so, perhaps you are overdoing it and need to increase your labour rate.

Personally, I think people are happier paying the higher labour charge than a big mark up provided the standard of work justifies it, which I assume it does in your case. "He was expensive but gave me a reasonable price and good warranty for the boiler and the work was excellent." is a better story to leave someone with than "He charged me £2k for a boiler I could have bought online for £1k."

We don't separate out our quotes, it goes something like this - Worcester Bosch *** boiler, horizontal flue, magnetic particle filter, pipe & fittings, powerflush system & drain, install boiler, refill system, add inhibitor, test and commission boiler and register with Gas-Safe. Includes labour and sundries.

We don't add a markup to the materials as such. We have been estimating for over 50 years now so we know the approx. cost of each component so our quotes are pretty accurate but we don't have the time to sit down and itemise every item at a cost then add a markup.

What the customer seems to be doing is browsing the internet for the components and choosing the wrong ones at the wrong prices then saying well "materials are X, so labour must be X". The other issue with the labour is we don't specify how many days the job will take in our quote, we may say to the customer that it will take 1 - 2 days but then if it only takes one they feel they should have a discount on the labour! Just can't win.

I agree with your statement about a customers thoughts on pricing.

 

[oz-plumber]

Oh dear, no wonder this is common place with plumbers. A contract is not a contract if its unfair. So I could sign.agree accept BUT challenge on it being unfair (and forced to accept unfair terms) Unless you make claim to an associated event (by sending part payment you accept to be bound by our T&C's, in accepting our quote you.*** for example). You don't need a signature to have a binding contract, A shop does not have to give you a receipt, you do not need a receipt to return damaged goods etc. The main point is "you could argue" and that's what it will come down to in a small claims court. Then its the best solicitor wins... looks like there should be a thread on the basics of contract law...you lot seem to be way over exposed to claw backs and counter claims.

Oh dear....
What is unfair about these contracts.

-Plumber provides quotation.
-Customer accepts quotation and pays deposit as per quotation.
-Plumber does work as per quotation.
-Customer wants to review pricing of quoted works after job done.

There doesn't seem to be any question of the standard of works done - just wanting a price reduction.

The customer also has the right to get other quotes from other plumbers.
They also have the right to choose who they want to do the works from the quotations

Maybe they choose the plumber who they think will be the easiest to rip off at the end of the job

 

[hometech]

Oh dear.***
What is unfair about these contracts.

-Plumber provides quotation.
-Customer accepts quotation and pays deposit as per quotation.
-Plumber does work as per quotation.
-Customer wants to review pricing of quoted works after job done.

There doesn't seem to be any question of the standard of works done - just wanting a price reduction.

The customer also has the right to get other quotes from other plumbers.
They also have the right to choose who they want to do the works from the quotations

Maybe they choose the plumber who they think will be the easiest to rip off at the end of the job

oh dear...someone is not familiar with Jurisprudence are they!
Because you "believe it to be so" does not "make it so" under common law. You might not agree, you might have another view point or perspective; it makes no difference. Facts are facts, the law is the law.
A quotation is not a contract but it can be used as the basis of a contract (as is or with modifications) and then converted to such by both parties formalising the quotation. The same applies to an "estimate" vs a "quotation". Here is my estimate..you do the work...you ask for 20% more...is that legal? of course, you estimated the cost, you did not give a specific "quotation" for the job. So until consumers and suppliers understand the law is the law, not what they think it should be, there will forever be situations which create grief. Start with the basics of knowing the difference between an "estimate, quotation and contract" and you're almost there.
ps as the economic decline speeds up, I believe these situations will become more frequent.

"Caveat emptor" applies to both the seller and the buyer....​

 

[Minster]

I'm almost afraid to ask but are people undertaking work without a written contract? No contract then it becomes verbal then it becomes I said she said. Same applies to supply of goods and the law. If I supply hardware to a customer, I am the seller and I am the buyer from my supplier which means consumer protection laws apply to me as the seller. If the customer argued the goods were faulty (6 months) then I have to replace of refund at my cost and then try and make a claim against my supplier in which case my first admision is that I resold the goods and in doing so, relinquished rights.

We have a terms of trade contract which is supplied at the same time as the quote and the quote says "by paying a deposit the customer accepts our terms of trade".

 

[Minster]

Oh dear.***
What is unfair about these contracts.

-Plumber provides quotation.
-Customer accepts quotation and pays deposit as per quotation.
-Plumber does work as per quotation.
-Customer wants to review pricing of quoted works after job done.

There doesn't seem to be any question of the standard of works done - just wanting a price reduction.

The customer also has the right to get other quotes from other plumbers.
They also have the right to choose who they want to do the works from the quotations

Maybe they choose the plumber who they think will be the easiest to rip off at the end of the job

You've got it in one, swines are happy with the work and happy to put you through hoops but once they have the upper hand ie the work is done and they have all the pricey materials installed they want to negotiate the cost down...

 

[hometech]

We have a terms of trade contract which is supplied at the same time as the quote and the quote says "by paying a deposit the customer accepts our terms of trade".

so you have provided a hard copy of the terms (if it were digital they can argue they were not able to access and read them) so it is considered binding.

 

[hometech]

There is another aspect of course, which is the terms and conditions of the customer towards your business and once you have taken a deposit it will be impossible to implement terms that were not already explicitly agreed before you accepted the deposit. It cuts both ways. For example, having provided a deposit, can they cancel? if they cancel, do you state you can keep a percentage of the deposit? All agreements need to made made in writing and before you accept any payment.
You change a tap in an expensive bath. They provide the tap, you charge £20 for example. You drop the tap into the bath, ruined a £1000 bath which they state you are responsible for as you caused the damage. Even with insurance, which I'm certain you all have, the insurance company will look for ways not to pay and will first refer back to the terms and conditions you both agreed upon before the work was started or payment made.

 

[Minster]

There is another aspect of course, which is the terms and conditions of the customer towards your business and once you have taken a deposit it will be impossible to implement terms that were not already explicitly agreed before you accepted the deposit. It cuts both ways. For example, having provided a deposit, can they cancel? if they cancel, do you state you can keep a percentage of the deposit? All agreements need to made made in writing and before you accept any payment.
You change a tap in an expensive bath. They provide the tap, you charge £20 for example. You drop the tap into the bath, ruined a £1000 bath which they state you are responsible for as you caused the damage. Even with insurance, which I'm certain you all have, the insurance company will look for ways not to pay and will first refer back to the terms and conditions you both agreed upon before the work was started or payment made.

Deposit is refundable if we have any unforeseen reason not to perform the contract and refundable less any materials/expenses not able to be returned in the case the customer cancels. I would consider it a fair contract and to stand up in law it needs to be fair.

 

[hometech]

Deposit is refundable if we have any unforeseen reason not to perform the contract and refundable less any materials/expenses not able to be returned in the case the customer cancels. I would consider it a fair contract and to stand up in law it needs to be fair.

So how do you handle the legal situation of where you are the seller of a combi boiler and consumer rights to have it replaced or refunded should it malfunction within 6 months (no arguments whatsoever) and covering at least a year that covers replacement or repair. We provide a shopping list for costly equipment they they buy it and where we purchase on behalf of the customer, we use the customers details for the purchase. Do plumbers become the seller of combi's rather than just being installers?

 

[Minster]

So how do you handle the legal situation of where you are the seller of a combi boiler and consumer rights to have it replaced or refunded should it malfunction within 6 months (no arguments whatsoever) and covering at least a year that covers replacement or repair. We provide a shopping list for costly equipment they they buy it and where we purchase on behalf of the customer, we use the customers details for the purchase. Do plumbers become the seller of combi's rather than just being installers?

We go out FOC to inspect the boiler, confirm it is defective and then call out the manufacturer to repair under the warranty.

 

[hometech]

We go out FOC to inspect the boiler, confirm it is defective and then call out the manufacturer to repair under the warranty.

and if this happens within the first 6 months and you have an informed customer, consumer law demands you have to provide a refund if requested....if you refused (outlined as above) and ended up in court having contravened consumer laws, what would your defence be?

 

[Minster]

and if this happens within the first 6 months and you have an informed customer, consumer law demands you have to provide a refund if requested....if you refused (outlined as above) and ended up in court having contravened consumer laws, what would your defence be?

We may not have a defence, we'd cross that bridge it if happened. To be honest, nothing is ever straightforward and if we were to worry about that scenario there'd be no point in our trading or any other heating firm offering their services either! Seems in this industry you're on a hiding to nothing no matter how reputable, hard-working and honest you are!

Out of curiosity what would YOU do?

I looked up the law "If a product develops a fault within the first six months after purchase, it's assumed it has been present since the time of purchase. ... If a repair or replacement has failed, you have the right to reject the goods for a full refund or price reduction."

 

[hometech]

We may not have a defence, we'd cross that bridge it if happened. To be honest, nothing is ever straightforward and if we were to worry about that scenario there'd be no point in our trading or any other heating firm offering their services either! Seems in this industry you're on a hiding to nothing no matter how reputable, hard-working and honest you are!

Out of curiosity what would YOU do?

I don't ever allow my company to ever get into that situation, that would be irresponsible and stupid. Imagine the hit on an 8K 70 inch TV that was defective and the client just asking for money back. I'd get it replaced by the supplier of course but then I'd have a an expensive bit of kit looking for a home. I have clients who pay large sums of money for automation in their expensive homes. They demand the best, I provide the best and as such, I conduct the business with the utmost professionalism and attention to detail. I have a duty of care to the business and the clients and myself to take the time to understand the consequences of not accepting the consequences.

 

[Minster]

I don't ever allow my company to ever get into that situation, that would be irresponsible and stupid. Imagine the hit on an 8K 70 inch TV that was defective and the client just asking for money back. I'd get it replaced by the supplier of course but then I'd have a an expensive bit of kit looking for a home. I have clients who pay large sums of money for automation in their expensive homes. They demand the best, I provide the best and as such, I conduct the business with the utmost professionalism and attention to detail. I have a duty of care to the business and the clients and myself to take the time to understand the consequences of not accepting the consequences.

I don't really understand your point... We supply and install boilers (amongst other services), if they are faulty we either repair, ask the manufacturer to repair or we would replace at cost to ourselves, so how do YOU avoid this obligation??? No point in telling me you don't allow yourself to get into this position, how do you avoid it would be the answer I seek.

 

[Chuck]

and if this happens within the first 6 months and you have an informed customer, consumer law demands you have to provide a refund if requested.

The rights are to a repair or replacement. The entitlement to a refund kicks in only if this has been unsuccessfully attempted. I have never known a case where the manufacturer has failed to be able to repair or replace a recently installed boiler.

 

[Minster]

The rights are to a repair or replacement. The entitlement to a refund kicks in only if this has been unsuccessfully attempted. I have never known a case where the manufacturer has failed to be able to repair or replace a recently installed boiler.

Exactly my point, repair or replacement which is what we would and have done.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

I've had a faulty Vaillant before, which the manufacture personally replaced themselves at no cost to me.

 

[hometech]

I don't really understand your point... We supply and install boilers (amongst other services), if they are faulty we either repair, ask the manufacturer to repair or we would replace at cost to ourselves, so how do YOU avoid this obligation??? No point in telling me you don't allow yourself to get into this position, how do you avoid it would be the answer I seek.

if its faulty within 6 months its classed as faulty from new and a consumer has the immediate option of a full refund from the seller..you. That is the bit your missing it would seem. So by having the consumer buy the expensive equipment themselves i.e. in their own name, you are hands up free and not your problem should they demand a full refund. They could easily argue for a refund on the installation cost as well, then you are loosing hand over fist. By structuring the legal contract so that you are the labour supplier, then only issues you face are against the quality of the install. If you feel the need to make margin on a boiler then you accept the consequences of being the seller.
These are no semantics, this is the law and it would seem that you are totally ignorant of it and the consequences it has. Ask a solicitor if you know one.

 

[Murdoch]

if its faulty within 6 months its classed as faulty from new and a consumer has the immediate option of a full refund from the seller..you. That is the bit your missing it would seem. So by having the consumer buy the expensive equipment themselves i.e. in their own name, you are hands up free and not your problem should they demand a full refund. They could easily argue for a refund on the installation cost as well, then you are loosing hand over fist. By structuring the legal contract so that you are the labour supplier, then only issues you face are against the quality of the install. If you feel the need to make margin on a boiler then you accept the consequences of being the seller.
These are no semantics, this is the law and it would seem that you are totally ignorant of it and the consequences it has. Ask a solicitor if you know one.

I think that's really harsh and unhelpful.

What are you trying to achieve on this thread? I'm puzzled to say the least.

 

[hometech]

I've had a faulty Vaillant before, which the manufacture personally replaced themselves at no cost to me.

which is their legal obligation under consumer law...

 

[Ric2013]

if its faulty within 6 months its classed as faulty from new and a consumer has the immediate option of a full refund from the seller..you. That is the bit your missing it would seem.

If you are talking about the right to reject under section 20 of the Consumer Rights Act, your interpretation is different from that of 'Which?' (formerly 'the Consumers' Association').

It would seem the 30 day period is unconditional (for supply of faulty goods, NOT SERVICES), and your point about assumption of faulty goods during the 6 months is correct, but does not give you an automatic right to a refund if, say, the hinge on the control panel cover breaks after 5 months.

Having skimmed through some of the leglislation itself, it is quite complex and a bit beyond speedy comprehensive understanding by myself because, while educated to a high level, I am not educated in law.

If a consumer could reject a boiler and require a full refund on it after 5 months after one failed repair, I suppose this situation could come about, but the refund would seem to be on that item not the entire installation so it's unlikely a customer would want this outcome. In this case, I'm sure the boiler manufacturer would help the installer else we'd all be hearing about it on this forum. You do make an interesting point about breakdown of costs - but I wonder how BOXT gets round it? BOXT's price shows the installation as being free, so were I lucky, I could get my gas run upgraded, something would go on the boiler, and I'd be able to return the boiler and get a refund on the whole job if you were right, but BOXT would have to leave my new gas pipework. I suspect it's one of those cases that would depend on who had the best solicitor, rather than being clear-cut.

As for my sarcastic BR example, yeah you got me, as it is a public service and it may be public record, but if so, you've missed my point entirely. Seriously, if you really don't get the sarcasm, I am more than willing to explain the joke.

which is their legal obligation under consumer law...

No. it is isn't, not if you are referring to the CRA, as your previous posts suggest you know. The manufacturer does not have the responsibility to replace a gas installer's boiler under consumer law as the installer is quite clearly not a consumer.

@hometech - you are quite clearly knowledgeable, but please be aware you are letting your psychological need to win this argument run away with you and you are oversimplifying the matter. This is coming across as point scoring to the detriment of the accuracy and therefore the helpfulness of your contribution to this thread. But thank you for your contribution, all the same.

Minster is referring to as a quotation and presumably has told the customer it is such: based on which the customer has instructed the work. Were this to become a court case, a consumer instructing work after a quoted price and then feeling the price is excessive would not have the judge's sympathy unless he can clearly show the price is well above that normally paid. Comparing online prices is not really comparing apples with apples and I'm sure the law would consider the overall price. The price for the parts supplied by the installer includes the installer's time to choose suitable parts, collect, and deliver them - much as the BOXT boiler prices include installation.

As you say, in doubt, consult a solicitor. But this is a plumbers' forum and realistically the OP needs advice on how to handle customers and avoid this situation. Writing a contract that will stand up in court but having to go to court over every boiler install is not a solution. Planning an entire business around one hypothetical awkward customer is not good practice unless the awkward customer is a £50,000 contract. Pimlico (a very successful business) has its Ts and Cs limited to 16 points and I suspect that any event outside of those terms is handled by informal discussion or it goes to court, otherwise it'd be like being in Italy where you get handed 25 pages to sign without a chance to read them and, while the contract is watertight (but possibly itself subject to litigation due to unclear terms), the plumbing itself may not be.

I would, however, be interested to see every line of written communication between the OP and the customer (with sensitive details omitted) if this is happening often. I'm not sure if it's how the information is presented, or it's simply a case of similar people referring Minster to one another.

 

[hometech]

I think that's really harsh and unhelpful.

What are you trying to achieve on this thread? I'm puzzled to say the least.

the thread was about being challenged by customers demands for a reduction in price after job completion. I've just scrolled back so I'm certain of that.
I found it fascinating as to to the situations that could arise that would lead to this demand which is why I followed the thread.
It became apparent that using basic trading tools that have been in play for millennium were considered unnecessary by plumbers which again I found fascinating.
I merely pointed out that consumer law applies to everyone and that ignorance has never been a defence under law.
I hope that the real legal points I raised are at least considered by plumbers.
Knowledge is power but without direction it has little value

 

[Minster]

if its faulty within 6 months its classed as faulty from new and a consumer has the immediate option of a full refund from the seller..you. That is the bit your missing it would seem. So by having the consumer buy the expensive equipment themselves i.e. in their own name, you are hands up free and not your problem should they demand a full refund. They could easily argue for a refund on the installation cost as well, then you are loosing hand over fist. By structuring the legal contract so that you are the labour supplier, then only issues you face are against the quality of the install. If you feel the need to make margin on a boiler then you accept the consequences of being the seller.
These are no semantics, this is the law and it would seem that you are totally ignorant of it and the consequences it has. Ask a solicitor if you know one.

The refund only applies if the repair or replacement haven’t resolved the issue, you are stating they can go straight for a refund without the repair/replacement option and you are wrong - check your facts rather than advise me to ask a solicitor. Also if you read my comments you’d see we don’t add a mark up to the materials.