Flow gauges for central heating pipe work

[Jones82]

Whilst installing a new heat only boiler today I thought why don't we have flow gauges, in litres per min, on the flow immediately after the pump and then on the return near the boiler?

This would allow us to see in real time the performance of the pump and the loss of flow around the system.

I've used a flow cup to measure water main performance and I've seen small gauges on underfloor heating pipe work but never seen one on flow and return pipe work.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Commercial normally to limit flow but nothing to tell you actually the flow through the system

Eg

Balancing valve with flow meter

 

[chris watkins]

The flow from the pump & back to the boiler would be the same Jones82 as it is the primary circuit so only one flow gauge required (it would be a loss of pressure).
I know of heating engineers who are installing the Caleffi Balancing valves in domestic systems and by all accounts they work well, allowing the flow rate (amount of heat) to be accurately set & they aren't too expense.
However they don't give you real time flow rates as you have to pull the pin to allow water through the measuring / sight tube.

 

[Jones82]

Hmm interesting, I did halve think this. But thought the flow might be greater after the pump, on the positive side? Also the values would change as each radiator or zone closed and opened?

How about two pressure gauges, with a small range, 0-1 bar for example to measure how much the pump is pushing and how much pressure loss there is around the system.

It occurred to me that we use logical thinking a lot in plumbing rather than actual gauges. For example, its hot so its working!

Perhaps in the future the gauges will be digital.

Boilers take readings in order to regulate and modulate accordingly. So perhaps its just a case of putting these readings on a screen or an app.

It would be nice to see the performance of the system in real time, as zones opened and closed or even individual radiators.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Hmm interesting, I did halve think this. But thought the flow might be greater after the pump, on the positive side? Also the values would change as each radiator or zone closed and opened?

How about two pressure gauges, with a small range, 0-1 bar for example to measure how much the pump is pushing and how much pressure loss there is around the system.

It occurred to me that we use logical thinking a lot in plumbing rather than actual gauges. For example, its hot so its working!

Perhaps in the future the gauges will be digital.

Boilers take readings in order to regulate and modulate accordingly. So perhaps its just a case of putting these readings on a screen or an app.

It would be nice to see the performance of the system in real time, as zones opened and closed or even individual radiators.

Have you been on the imi course if not it’s a great day I would recommend it

 

[John.g]

Hmm interesting, I did halve think this. But thought the flow might be greater after the pump, on the positive side? Also the values would change as each radiator or zone closed and opened?

How about two pressure gauges, with a small range, 0-1 bar for example to measure how much the pump is pushing and how much pressure loss there is around the system.

It occurred to me that we use logical thinking a lot in plumbing rather than actual gauges. For example, its hot so its working!

Perhaps in the future the gauges will be digital.

Boilers take readings in order to regulate and modulate accordingly. So perhaps its just a case of putting these readings on a screen or an app.

It would be nice to see the performance of the system in real time, as zones opened and closed or even individual radiators.

Hmm interesting, I did halve think this. But thought the flow might be greater after the pump, on the positive side? Also the values would change as each radiator or zone closed and opened?

How about two pressure gauges, with a small range, 0-1 bar for example to measure how much the pump is pushing and how much pressure loss there is around the system.

It occurred to me that we use logical thinking a lot in plumbing rather than actual gauges. For example, its hot so its working!

Perhaps in the future the gauges will be digital.

Boilers take readings in order to regulate and modulate accordingly. So perhaps its just a case of putting these readings on a screen or an app.

It would be nice to see the performance of the system in real time, as zones opened and closed or even individual radiators.

"Perhaps in the future the gauges will be digital."
The future is already here if you have certain models of Grundfos circ pumps..I think the Alpha 3 displays both the pump head and the flow rate which can be very handy. Practically all the replacement pumps now display the power in watts and the head and flow can then be derived from the pump curves, a bit messy but the info can be extracted if required.

 

[Rob Foster]

Whilst installing a new heat only boiler today I thought why don't we have flow gauges, in litres per min, on the flow immediately after the pump and then on the return near the boiler?

This would allow us to see in real time the performance of the pump and the loss of flow around the system.

I've used a flow cup to measure water main performance and I've seen small gauges on underfloor heating pipe work but never seen one on flow and return pipe work.

This is a great idea if you want help developing it UkPlumbing & Heating Innovation Centre .is a not for profit organisation in its embryo stage set up to help develop projects from conception thro to production and sales. Mike Clement and I set it up and we have backing assured ...let me know
Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Rob Foster]

"Perhaps in the future the gauges will be digital."
The future is already here if you have certain models of Grundfos circ pumps..I think the Alpha 3 displays both the pump head and the flow rate which can be very handy. Practically all the replacement pumps now display the power in watts and the head and flow can then be derived from the pump curves, a bit messy but the info can be extracted if required.

loads of boilers already know this stuff in their little brains but dont tell anybody
Rob Foster

 

[doitmyself]

This would allow us to see in real time the performance of the pump and the loss of flow around the system.

There will be a loss of pressure around the system, due to the friction created by water flowing through the pipes. But the flow out of the pump must be the same as the flow into the pump. If it's not, where is the extra water coming from?

 

[Stu-B]

Something else to block up with sludg

 

[Rob Foster]

Something else to block up with sludg

However an inteligent pair of flow meters, cleverly sited, over time would be able to indicate sludge and debris build up esp when tied into the demands of the pump/s drawing more power to compensate...its a winner esp in the next generation of homes with mini BMS when the domestic system reports back ..to a monitor station ..already seen it a few months ago in North West England. Stuff like hive is so intermediate the next stage is automatic monitoring and reporting
and its a game changer and just around the corner.
Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Rob Foster]

loads of boilers already know this stuff in their little brains but dont tell anybody
Rob Foster

Modern cars have a multiplug socket which the micknick connects to and then off he goes...this is potentially available in most modern boilers BUT guess what for the sake of a multi comnnector they dont...but rely on magical fault codes on an display...with secret sequences to stop mortals finding out whats wrong...a bit like masonic funny handshakes ...chking...this is not really my area of
centralheating component design but obviously I touch on it at
the odd meeting ...and listen it would be silly not to
Listen to everything !

 

[chris watkins]

Something else to block up with sludg

In 1980 I installed a complete heating system with Ideal W wall hung gas boiler for my Grandad & Nan, I took the revolutionary step of adding Fernox MB1. For the next 25 years I serviced it yearly & drew a sample from the drain offs it remained crystal clear if slightly yellow.
Look after your systems & forget about sludge!!!

 

[Jones82]

Thanks, just thinking out loud to be honest!

Its not "extra water" or "less water" but loss of pressure or flow.

For example

Imagine you had a pressure / flow gauge on your outside tap as soon as it comes out the wall. Then imagine you have one on the end of the hose pipe after its run 20m down the garden. Surely the gauges would read different values?

Now translate this to a heating system.

How do we know the flow or pressure of the system at the furthest radiator? We can measure temperature and balance the system accordingly but what if its an excessive run, or badly designed pipe work?

As plumbers we make alot of logical decisions and I just thought surely the technology exists to give us a clearer image of the heating system and how it works.

 

[doitmyself]

How do we know the flow or pressure of the system at the furthest radiator? We can measure temperature and balance the system accordingly but what if its an excessive run, or badly designed pipe work?

I don't see how measuring the flow and pressure will tell one anything about the run or pipework. If a pipe has to be run from A to B, common sense, or measurement, will tell one if a shorter run is possible; and there are tables available which give recommended pipe sizes, depending on the required flow.

In any case it's not the pressure at a particular point which is important, but the pressure difference between two points, e.g. either side of a radiator.