Gas in rads

[JohnRMoore]

When our system gets nice and hot the rads fill up with an unidentified gas. I burnt some and it had a clear blue flame, orange edges and left soot on the bleed key and molegrips I was holding the key with. Any ideas? It's a brand new boiler and 15yr old rads. Open vented.

 

[smileyplumber]

hygogen is the gas that is genraly produced is the heating system its the seperation of the water make up wich is a sign that the sytem is'nt prone to air oxygen getting into it and causing rust ie: sludge build up .
so I was led to believe at collage anyway

 

[PlumbBobBob]

that will be hydrogen gas

you beat me lol

 

[smileyplumber]

yeh but you can spell it so double pionts :wink:

 

[Mike Jackson]

Time to get the system flushed properly. Hydrogen gas is a by product of the corrosion taking place in the syetm. Also get the cold feed/open vent configuration checked as air ingress can accelerate the corrosion problem. All this should have been done when the new boiler was fitted.

 

[JohnRMoore]

Sorry for delayed response, I can't find my way round this site very easily! I have tested the ph of the water and it came up neutral. Also, the formation of soot left me confused - I though hydrogen burned clean? Also, I have been told that if it was hydrogen it would burn rapidly (ie pop), while this burns slowly and maintains a flame - I have even managed to video it. My thoughts were methane from some kind of biological action, but it is interesting that none of you proposed this. I see fernox have an anti bacterial cleaning solution - but are such things rare? I would have thought that the power flush that preceded the boiler being fitted would have got rid of nasties, but is is a 10mm microbore system. Still think it's hydrogen? My plumber is offering an air seperator, labour free, parts only cost. Should I accept this fix?

 

[scotty plumber]

Yes mate you could try the air-seperator as that could help it also i believe that getting it power-flushed would not be a bad idea either a bit pricey though! Good luck anyway's!

 

[JohnRMoore]

OK, I now know for certain it's hydrogen; I collected some in gas syringe and it went BANG when I lit - took me a bit by suprise! I now need the plumbers' point of view as to what I can reasonably expect my plumber to do. Is it possible to do a decent job at cleaning and protecting the system, and have this problem? If not, should I expect him to repeat the powerflush that was supposed to have been done, or what? The water also has bits of black oxide and what looks like tiny whisps of snot in it. I like my plumber, but he says he has never heard of gas problems such as this in thirty years, so I'm having difficulty in knowing what to do to get him to understand. Should I have to pay again to get this sorted? I don't feel like I should! The fact the cold feed tank is full of sludge suggest of a lack of attention to detail when it came to cleaning out - wouldn't you wash that out?

 

[armourer]

Its difficullt to judge how another engineer has done without knowing the full details and what sort of condition the system was in before he started.
In answer to your question. Yes in theory a powerflush can completly get rid of this problem but it does and can take a long time.

How long did the engineer take and how much did he charge?

 

[JohnRMoore]

I had a Worcester boiler fitted and was told that the system had to be cleaned to the manufacturers requirements for the guarantee to be valid. I was told that this would include a powerflush. I pointed out at the time that it was 10mm microbore but this wasn't reqarded as a problem. I requested one rad removed and cleaned out because it had a large coldspot low down, and this was done with some success. I don't know how long they took because I wasn't in (whole job took 2 days) and the bill wasn't itemised. The job was as follows:

Installation:

1. Remove existing boiler, make good flue hole
2. Fit new hot water cylinder stat (lower position)
3. Install new boiler in downstairs WC, on wc wall with flue going to the right
4. Run condense to WC soil pipe
5. Run flow and return to new boiler making sure they are correct
6. Electrics to boiler
7. Install new 7 day programmer
8. Power flush heating system to manufacturers instructions
9. Fit 2 x pump isolating valves
10. Commission and test to current standards
11. Disposal of rubbish

Total £2,325.00 inc. VAT


PS the boiler is an 18ri, the cleaner was Gold 300, and inhibitor is Gold 100. We bought the house last year, and it is approx 15 years old. Don't know how well maintained the system was, but works fine now except for bleeding bubbles!

 

[Chrisgy]

I ordered some of that gold 100 from a company cold calling me selling it at about £5 a bottle, compared to fernox, sentinel etc it's like a bottle of water I think they are rip offs and their cleaner would probably struggle to clean a new system. Id go get some sentinel x700, pour it in you heating tank before bleeding your rads again and get the system hot for a while then ask your plumber just to come round and drain down and put some proper inhibitor in like sentinel x100 or fernox f1

If that doesn't work it will need power flushing but make sure he uses proper chemicals

 

[PlumbBobBob]

i agree over the chemicals, it's always best to use chemicals from a well known manufacturer like fernox or sentinel. although having said that i have no nonsense in my van at the moment which has a bottle identical to the fernox one, who knows could be made by the same company?

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

all chemicals now have to be build cert approved to prove there up to the job in hand,however some one on here posted up the results of the build cert findings the strength/concentration results are interesting

 

[JohnRMoore]

I am assuming from your responses that as a minimum the system needs a refill with a decent inhibitor. My problem is that my plumber instead wants to fit an air separator (which I assume would happily remove the bubbles, while my radiators continue to corrode away in the meantime?) How do you advise I proceed - after all, I can't meddle in his decisions without the danger of taking responsibility away from him to fix it. On the other hand, if an air separator is fitted, the noticeable symptoms may go away and he can walk away while my rads rot. What do I do now? PS thanks very much for all your help - I am feeling a lot happier now!

 

[kay-jay]

allow him to proceed with the air seperator, but ask him to add a decent cleaner and return at a later date to drain down and refill with a decent inhibitor.
you would not be asking him to do something that is contradicting his intended course of action, simply providing ongoing protection for your heating system.