HRM Wallstar Oil Boiler - Advice please

[John.g]

Thanks for updating us. Im sorry to hear you made that decision, although it does suggest the problem was never fuel related and was within the burner, unless the installer rectified a proper when installing.
Not a fan of combi boilers personally but if I remember correctly there's just the two of you and they are decent boilers.

Again thanks for updating us.

Many thanks, Simon

SJB, you may have a few comments to make re Stored combi boilers output and flow rates, there are numerous queries on here re gas combi flow rates as well.

I am looking at a brochure for a Firebird C35 combi boiler and to quote "D.H.W. Guide Performance in litres/min (120 litre draw-off at 40C deltaT) 20". It has a primary store of 40 litres heated to 78C.
Do you know if this guide performance is typical for oil fired combis? and also how is this number of 120 litres arrived at?
My simple calc shows that if one assumes cold water at 10C, then with a deltaT of 40C the stored cylinder will give a volume of 40*(78-10)/(50-10), 68 litres at 50C (which should give 20 LPM but only for 68/20, 3.4 mins, the burner should kick in at 73C and then the 35kw boiler will give a continuous flowrate of (35*860)/(40*60), 12.54 LPM.
My main query is this 120 litre figure?, the flow rates are simple to understand IMO.

 

[SimonG]

120 litres to fill a bath. They want to give the idea that you can fill a bath before the store gives out. It doesn't last though.

 

[SJB060685]

Its to do with the amount of stored energy in the thermal store. 120 litres is what can be provided at that delta until the store depletes.
Gas is different, they ramp up to full output and can modulate down for the lower load of CH.
Because up until recently domestic oil burners are fixed rate they have to use a store to aid in HW production.
If my understanding and maths is correct then 20 litres per minute at a delta t of 40°c would require an input of roughly 50kw but as said above if there was no thermal store and you had a nozzle size and pressure to input 50kw for HW then the CH side will also have the same input, obviously being massively oversized.
Perhaps when fully modulating oil burners take off there will be no need for a thermal store.
Thats my understanding, if I'm wrong then please correct me.

 

[John.g]

My calcs show that a 70 litre store would be required to give that 120 litres, the store is definitely required as you say because of the fixed boiler output and if you only needed a flow rate of 4 or 5 LPM then the boiler would be constantly cycling on/off. A continuous 20 LPM at a deltaT of 40 requires 56kw, the more normal quoted deltaT of 35C would require 49kw.

 

[SJB060685]

Can you break down your calculation method.
Bare in mind as the store temp decreases the burner will engage and supply additional energy, until a certain point where the input cant match the output.

 

[John.g]

OK, you are mixing cold water (at say 10C, but you can use your own number) with hot water at 78C (stored water temp) to give a mixed temp of 50C so every 1 litre of water at 78C will give 1*(78-10)/(50-10), 1.7 litres at 50C, so a store of 40 litres at 78C will give 68 litres at 50C. Additional energy will be supplied when the store reaches 73C but store will just about be depleted then and a 35kw boiler will then have a flow temp (to the store) at 20 LPM, of ((35*860)/(20*60))+10, 35C. The only way to get a sustained flow rate at 50C after the store is depleted is to reduce the flow rate to 12.54 LPM (35*860)/(60*(50-10).

 

[SJB060685]

How are you reaching your mixed temperature?

 

[John.g]

I presume the Firebird has a mixer to reduce the temp to ~ 65c and then the shower or whatever will reduce it to 50C but it doesn't matter as the stated conditions are water from a stored temp of 78 to water at 50C (from 10C) so the ratio is 1.7:1.

Thinking back again to the burner re firing at a store temp of 73C, if the probe picks this up very early in the draw off then you could be adding in energy early on so that will have the effect of increasing the thermal store so the 120 litres may actually be not too far off the mark as it would only need a additional ~ 2.5 kwh to achieve this but needs a bit more thought.

 

[SJB060685]

So have I done the maths correct.
Say we have a store of 50 litres with a temperature of 80°c and we want a delta t of 35°c and an incoming temperature of say 12°c
So 1 litre will provide 80 ÷ 35 = 2.28 litres, so 50 × 2.28 = 114 litres?

 

[John.g]

Not quite, the calc IMO is 1 litre will provide (80-12)/(47-12) or 1.942 litres @ 47C so 50x1.942= 97 litres. I will show the actual "long" calc when i return in ~ 2 hrs.