Is this dangerous and, if so, how dangerous?

[leedx7]

Hi there, just stumbled on this forum as I panic search for advice.

I have recently had an Ideal Logic+ combi condensor boiler fitted. It is in the old airing cupboard with a flue and the condensation pipe running outside. The condensation pipe is 22mm internally and externally. It's lagged and runs almost horizontally (the missus says it is horizontal, but I doubt that) along the north facing outside wall of the house and into a gutter.

As you've probably guessed, it froze and the boiler cut out.

I have twin baby boys so the heating can't be left off, especially now.

The wall on which the boiler sits backs onto the boys' room.

I called the installer (as I had no idea at the time what had caused the boiler to cut out) and he cut the condensation pipe below the boiler and told me to put a bucket there. He would then return in a few days with a push fitting.

2 days later he finally rings telling me not to use the boiler as it will expel fumes into the house! This came as a bit of a shock! The boiler needs to be on, and it's right next to the kids room! He is going to try and come tomorrow to reconnect it (presumably using a pushing fitting?).

On reading the interweb, it seems that fumes should be stopped by either the flue or a trap in the boiler. How can I know if the trap is full or that the flue is working? Is there a real risk of fumes in the boiler? Will leaving the boiler off make it safe? By "off" does that mean off at the mains or can I use hot water?

We have a carbon monoxide detector placed next to the boiler, but is that the fumes being expelled?

Any and all advice would be gratefully received.

Oh, and if he does refit it, and assuming it re-freezes - would a wider external pipe make any real difference?

Thanks

 

[Rob Sale]

Larger diater pipe on the outside of the building and get him to put this on Prevent frozen condensate with our new device - Worcester, Bosch Group UK installer site or a condensate pumps to a sink, bath trap in the house.

 

[Rob Sale]

If your in doubt of his work get a Gas safe registered engineer round to asses the work and correct it to get it the heating on.

 

[TBServices]

Technically the condensate is part of the flue system and could expel gases into the house, so should not be open in the house. Realistically this can only happen if the trap is empty and shouldn't usually present a risk, although there is that potential.

Best advice is to leave it off for now (no heating or hot water) and get him to sort it ASAP. Understandably he will be rushed off his feet right now, but honestly if you we're my customer, I'd have been round and sorted it by now, even if it meant coming out of usual working hours.

The logics already have a siphonic trap, so that Worcester gizmo won't help. It sounds to me like he's run the pipe too far in 3/4" with not enough fall on it, and probably used the wrong lagging.

Best permanent fix would be trace heating along the pipe, and make sure he lags with exterior grade armaflex (black - not the grey foam stuff), or upgrade the pipe to 1 1/2" with a sufficient fall.

If he refuses to put it right, get in touch for a second opinion (I'm only in castleford)

 

[REDSAW]

dont panic at least for now, but make sure he increases the external pipe diameter

 

[bewsh]

You should be safe to use it as the condense trap in the boiler will store a level of water, which will stop any fumes coming through the pipe below the boiler.

22mm pipe outside is never a good idea with these harsh winters, especially if it's a long run. You need to get him back to fit atleast 1" and 1/4 or to keep the run inside by putting it into an internal waste pipe (if there's one close by)

 

[Deleted member 32524]

Good advice above!! Many condensate line manufacturers instructions have changed sine that extreme winter we had a couple of years ago. Probably was ok when done, but is maybe NCS now. as above at least inch and a quarter is what i use and the joint to 1'1/2 is sealed inside house.

 

[stevetheplumber]

it should not discharge into a gutter either it realy annoys me that lazy plumbers steal work from the better ones by not doing the correct things

 

[Destroyer2813]

Should only be in the gutter if its a combind drainege system anyway always best to run internally and even if it does go to the gutter there should be a air break at least

 

[buckley plumb]

[DLMURL]http://www.idealheating.com/downloads/manuals/204978.pdf[/DLMURL]

see page 23 is the picture (1)of the condense connected before the sink trap the same as the condense being left in the bucket.seen many put into washing machine trap

 

[michael c]

i know some of the big names actually informed their service engineers to cut the condense pipe internal and place a bucket under until they could return to reroute or reattach after the temperature has risen.

 

[leedx7]

Thanks for the advice and reassurance everyone, much appreciated.

The installer came early this morning, after I had left for work, and rejoined the cut pipe. He dismissed a larger exterior pipe on the basis it would be unslightly and told the missus that 22mm was fine if lagged.

It is lagged with the gray stuff you see everywhere. I think I need the black stuff? (Sorry for my abject lack of plumbering knowledge).

If it freezes again we have to lump it as the external pipe is high so, apparently, I can't just climb ladders and pour warm water on it.

Obviously with two 11 month old babies, that's a bit annoying but not much to be done about it.

it should not discharge into a gutter

Sorry, I was slightly misleading in my panic last night, having looked tonight it is actually going into the drain pipe coming down from the gutter.

I'd need a spirit level to tell it wasn't horizontal though! Surely it should be obviously angled?

Thanks again for the advice.

 

[Destroyer2813]

Yes it should be lagged in armaflex ( black) as the grey can hold water and frezze making your problem worse

 

[michael c]

it must have a constant 2.5 deg fall minimum and should be 35/40mm pipe if ran external. Sounds like your gas engineer either doesn't know the regs or was just too lazy to do the job properly. If the pipe is high and enters a drain pipe there is no excuse to not use larger pipe with a decent fall imho. I would either rectify this with the correct pipe and fall or fit a condensate pump which would allow to be run internal eliminating the worry of freezing

 

[Reg Man]

Lag it as much as you like, it will still freeze. Well thats my experience. Larger pipe outside. or trace heater on the pipe with frost stat.