USA Radiator emitting strong odor when heat goes up

[Gasmk1]

We don't fit that style of radiator ours tend to be large panel types or the upmarket designer rads even the school type (cast iron) our houses tend to be bricks and mortar so we don't have to fit anything behind them they are mounted on the wall

 

[John93]

Gasmk1 I have seen youtube vids of these kinds of radiators. They are really nice and sleek. Easily removed and cleaned. Hopefully the new radiator panel replacement will be easier to maintain and clean over the long run.

My point of concern now is regarding the black water barrier which was blown out when I used compressed air. If this needs to be replaced or if it affects the rad or can cause a smell?

The other issue is how to know if the wood behind the rad needs to be replaced? JTS mentioned wood rot. But if we open the panel and see the wood is fine. Replace the panel and then find out later the smell is still there due to something from the interior of the radiator, the inner portion which is mostly wood and dry wall, etc. What then? How do we determine when to gut the entire enclave, or whether it is panel only that is causing the smell? I would rather find out what the source of the smell is, before anything is replaced.

 

[John93]

Can't seem to get a response about the moisture barrier/black paper backing and whether its removal harms the operation of the rad in any way?

I blew out the radiator with compressed air. All the silver foil and black paper moisture barrier were forced out. Now it's just the rad panel and the interior which is wood and some gaps where drywall can be seen.

How do I determine if only the panel needs to be replaced? Or whether the entire wood interior be gutted and redone? Who can make this determination or assessment?

Thank you gentlemen. My apologies if the question seems mundane or obvious. My concern is the plumber may replace the panel and the smell doesn't go away. Either because the wood interior is causing the smell or if I caused a problem by removing the moisture barrier and silver foil.

 

[jtsplumbing]

The Black moisture barrier paper will not affect the operation of the heater, it is to stop any ingress of damp, and is advisable to have it replaced its is there for a reason and needs to be replaced! once panel is removed you need someone with the necessary equipment to test for damp/rot that may be a contractor , Carpenter, or even your local building control or your insurance company , don't let them just replace the panel all that is doing is covering up the problem it will need proper professional investigation , Damp/Rot doesn't go away it gets worse, its one of the problems with timber structures, and needs to be addressed ASAP.

 

[John93]

JTS I thank you kindly for all of your feedback and advice. Please know I keep track of everything and will follow those steps exactly. I don't think there is wood rot as that would have smelled in the years prior. But I do agree that this needs to be replaced and inspected first. So it does appear that I mucked this up and will require replacement of this moisture barrier. However,
before I did anything whatsoever, with the moisture barrier in place and the silver foil as well. It was off gassing something very noxious, which had a paint or fume smell. That was there prior to any interaction on my part.

JTS as this is something that I have to communicate to my building to co-ordinate the repair. And it may have to go to court. Do you recommend that I be open about the fact that I used compressed air and blew out the moisture barrier? Or is it best to not make any mention? I prefer to be honest but the people running this building are not exactly decent. They are the kind who would use anything against me to prevent incurring an expense. I have plans to leave this building due to the kind of people running and managing the property. Very underhanded and deceitful.

I lack experience with these sort of matters. So anything you can provide would be of tremendous help.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Treat them in the same way as they treat you, no witness to using air line so deny all knowledge sounds like you have untrustworthy people running your building, maybe the sooner you leave the better.

 

[John93]

JTS my thoughts exactly. After I get this radiator sorted. I think within the next year or so, I will relocate. As the people who run this place are crooked and corrupt. I know there are problems any place one goes. But here, the worst kinds of characters are making decisions. And a lot of my neighbors have similar views and in some cases worse.

Thankfully no other major repairs other than the rad. Will do my best to get everything dealt with. So that at least the people who come in after me, will not have the headache of having to deal with this as I do now.

JTS you're a good man. Really appreciate your help and that of everyone else who responded. It has helped me to navigate and kept me on the right track. You guys in the UK are a cut above the rest. That much is clear to me.

 

[Stigster]

On the subject of very minor leaks causing ridiculous amounts of damage (I have a friend who had £200,000 of damage cause by a long term slow leak last year, nothing to do with me fortunately!) I'd much rather have a pipe blow clean off and make an immediate mess that can be fixed and damage seen than a misting spray going under a floorboard for 6 months. In OP's case, as long as your health is not affected by damp problems, I would be at least happy that if a slow leak is the problem, it is the building owners problem to deal with and I hope you can move on. I can see this has been a stressful time for you so hope you get sorted one way or another.

Good luck.

 

[John93]

Thank you Stigster. Trying to get this worked out now. The property management will replace the rad.

I do have a new problem and wonder if anyone can offer a solution.

Management sent out a plumber to shut off the rad valve in order to allow me to use the bedroom again. The plumber claims that it is in the closed position. But the rad is emitting a low amount of heat.

I have an acquaintance who does plumbing and he came by to confirm whether this plumber did in fact shut it off completely. It was true the 1st plumber had closed all the way. 2nd plumber opened the valve then closed it back again. And now it is letting out more heat than when the 1st plumber tried to shut it off.

It seems that the valve is starting to go. And may require replacement.

Is there any way to shut this valve off for now? For example. Would turning it into the open position slowly. Letting it heat up for a couple of hours, then slowly turning it back into closed have any effect on that valve to shut it off? Or is it just very cut and dry meaning if the valve no longer shuts off completely it is a sign that it is damaged?

I guess I am concerned that this rad valve used to close completely. Then went to slight heat emitted after 1st plumber closed it. And now it is emitting more heat since my friend who is a plumber did a slight turn to open the valve then shut it back off. This progression seems to indicate more and and more heat is being let off in the closed position.

If I try anything can it possibly spring a leak? My friend said it is brass on brass. I don't know what may be shot in the valve. I wonder if there is any kind of work around so that I can at least shut the rad down until they replace it.

Also a 2nd question. When plumbers replace rads, would a new rad necessitate a new rad valve as well? Do those get installed together, or would the new rad be fitted into the old valve? If so then perhaps a valve replacement would be a good idea.

Thank you gentlemen, in advance.

 

[Gasmk1]

it has either pitted on the valve or some debris is stopping the valve shutting fully you can try turning it on and off but it may have failed. they will probbaly have to change the valve when they re-new the radiator.

 

[John93]

Thank you Gasmk1. Is there any danger of this valve springing a leak if I turn it on, then back off if that valve is failing?

I see that it has gone from being able to be shut off. To then emitting a low heat, and 2nd time turned off the heat is low but higher than the 1st time it was turned off. Meaning it seems to emit more heat with every successive turn of that valve after it is put in the closed position.

 

[John93]

The Black moisture barrier paper will not affect the operation of the heater, it is to stop any ingress of damp, and is advisable to have it replaced its is there for a reason and needs to be replaced! once panel is removed you need someone with the necessary equipment to test for damp/rot that may be a contractor , Carpenter, or even your local building control or your insurance company , don't let them just replace the panel all that is doing is covering up the problem it will need proper professional investigation , Damp/Rot doesn't go away it gets worse, its one of the problems with timber structures, and needs to be addressed ASAP.

Greetings everyone,

I have a question regarding which type of moisture barrier to use behind this base board water rad. JTS mentioned that the black paper moisture barrier needs to be replaced. I have had 3 plumbers who do heating come out and give quotes. For some reason none of them are aware of the moisture barrier. I have one plumber who says the only thing they use here is a paper with a reflective surface on one side and card board on the back. He claims it is dual purpose. I don't think he is telling me the truth. As the moisture barrier I had in my rad before I blew it out, was a combination of silver foil, and behind it black paper which acted as a moisture barrier. But werer separate sheets. Could someone provide feedback in terms of what the correct moisture barrier to use for this kind of base board water rad that I have? I do notice more dampness in that room now that there is no moisture barrier. The only plumber who knows anything claims the only one he could find was this card board reflector, which is silver on one side and paper on the back. But I am not confident that this will act as a moisture barrier. Thank you in advance.

 

[John93]

Gentlemen,

I found this material posted on another site. It is a double reflective insulation. That apparently acts as a barrier as well as reflecting the heat outwards.

Do you guys recommend this? Or is there a better or more suitable product out there that I can use or point out to the plumber so he can install it?

Reflectix 16 in. x 100 ft. Double Reflective Insulation with Staple Tab-ST16100 - The Home Depot

 

[Gasmk1]

what makes you think it was a vapour barrier if it was it would be all the way up behind the plaster, try a builder rather than a plumber to ascertain what it was also is there not some behind one of your other radiators

 

[John93]

Hi Gasmk1,

As a point of reference I am using both what came out when I blew out the bedroom rad. And also what is currently present in the living room rad which is in tact and was not blown out. The living room rad has a silver sheet of foil. And behind this a piece of black cardboard paper. JTS said this is a moisture barrier. The link I provided above to the home depot lists a reflective insulation. Some people apparently use this in the back side of the recess where the base board rad fits.

You're right in that a moisture barrier would be all the way in the wall. But jts said this black paper served a functional purpose to prevent dampness from getting in. And to make sure this was replaced when the rad was installed.

My issue is that the plumber is saying to just use a cardboard silver reflector to push out the heat. I am concerned this is will not keep dampness out. The reflective insulation I found at home depot seems to act as both a reflector and barrier. I'll add the link again. Any thoughts in terms of which is best to use? A cardboard silver reflector, or the silver insulation foam I found?

Reflectix 16 in. x 100 ft. Double Reflective Insulation with Staple Tab-ST16100 - The Home Depot

 

[jtsplumbing]

I would use the second one, as you are a Timber frame building, you need to keep the heat in as well as keeping the moisture out, the reflective foil is ok if radiator is mounted on a outside wall, but then it depends on the level of insulation in the building, and from your past posts it doesn't sound if it is very good.

 

[John93]

I would use the second one, as you are a Timber frame building, you need to keep the heat in as well as keeping the moisture out, the reflective foil is ok if radiator is mounted on a outside wall, but then it depends on the level of insulation in the building, and from your past posts it doesn't sound if it is very good.

Hi jts. Good to hear from you. I went ahead and made contact with a builder's forum. Gasmk1 said to get a builder involved. Builder forum made sense. One person there identified this black paper as tar paper.

I saw some vids where they use this in basements and other applications. So what you initially said about keeping moisture out. This seems to be the exact reason behind putting this tar paper back there. I will include a pic, and if someone can confirm whether this is tar paper. It will make things easier to then apply the same materials that were there to begin with.

jts one thing I did notice since I removed the tar paper and silver foil. Is now that the heat is mostly off. That bedroom is more humid than the rest of the apartment. It was not this humid prior to my removing this tar paper during previous years. When the heat was on, no change in humidity. But with the heat off, it seems humidity is a factor now as it is basically an exposed cavity with no barrier.

The building has agreed to go ahead with replacing the rad. They are waiting for the heat to be completely shut down, as they still have it on for night time. So within 1-2 weeks we should be able to go ahead with the replacement rad. If I know the materials and can name them. I can then communicate this to the plumber doing the rad replacement. Some plumbers I spoke to did not want to deal with that at all and said they are only there to replace the rad.

So if it is just tar paper. I can buy this and staple it on the backside of the rad. As for a reflector. I saw some reflective materials that are sold at home depot and online. I guess the best ones would be something without a glue or adhesive so that does not give off any smell.

Am I on the right track here? I recall what you said jts to take a good look inside once the panel is off. They will be doing that for sure. But if that is clear, I would think the next step would be to duplicate the materials used prior to my removing them. Which seems to be tar paper, and then a silver foil to act as a reflector.

I wonder why no one here identified this black paper as tar paper? Would have made things much easier knowing what the material actually is and then procuring it. Thankfully the builder's forum identified it, so I have some logical path to follow. Plus all the pointers I got here from jts and gasmk1 and others.

 

[Gasmk1]

thats why i said get a builder involved. reason no one said tar paper is because it is something we dont use or have its an american/canadian thing. just put back what was there in the first place.Novia Reflex Reflective Breather Membrane probably the modern equivalent

 

[John93]

Thanks for the link and viable alternative Gasmk1. Much appreciated.

If you've worked with this material before, do you know if it can be used inside of a rad? I imagine it can stand up to some very strong heat if used in roofing. But I think rad temp may be higher. My main concern being no emission of any smells.

Also, what is the best way to mount that material inside? Staples or screws? I see double sided tape on a lot of sites. But with this being a radiator, tape or glue probably are not suitable.

 

[Gasmk1]

no necer used so i have no idea.

 

[John93]

Greetings gentlemen,

I have a significant update. A plumber came out today and replaced my old cast iron baseboard rad with a newer slant/finn 30 model. It is much smaller than the old rad, and I have some concerns as to whether it will be strong enough to heat that room sufficiently.

I called the plumber and asked why he didn't install a model that was larger? The slant/finn 80? He said there would not be any increase in btu's as the pipe is only 1/4". I am not sure if he is being honest or just tried to install the cheapest model to pocket more cash. Claims there would not be any increase in BTU's given the pipe size.

This is a link to the slant/finn 30 manufacturer. They have the specs there. I measured the inside of this new rad, and it is a pipe with fins running along the entire length. I measured 5.5 feet from fin to fin.

Fine/Line 30 Baseboard

Do you gentlemen know if this type of rad would be strong enough to heat a room that is 10 feet wide by 11 feet long. 8 foot high ceiling. Bedroom with a double frame window, size 57"x57". Only one exterior wall.

I used a the slant/finn calculator they have on one site, and it said I require 8 feet. This guy only put in 5.5 feet of actual fins, which would emit heat.

I will contact him tomorrow. But he is not entirely keen on my questions, and I can't shake the feeling that this guy may have installed the cheapest rad, and did not get the sizing right for the proper BTU's.

Would really appreciate some feedback at this point. So much work has gone into arranging this with my building. I had plumbers come out. And now this guy, who claims has done many high rises here in Toronto. I am very suspicious as this new rad is much small and I can't see it being as strong as the cast iron base board panel that came out. I understand that he does many rad replacements. I could see how efficiently he worked. Highly skilled. So it stands to reason that he would put the right size in, if only to avoid call backs or complaints of insufficient heat. I do have that in mind. And yet I wonder how a smaller rad, can produce the same heat that my old rad produced.

I really hope this guy this did not screw me over. JTS had expressed some concerns about what may be behind that panel. Panel came off, nothing was in there. The wood backing was in very good shape. No rot of any kind. So that part is fine. He mounted this new rad quite nicely and the piping and fitting work was excellent. I just really have serious concerns about the output of this slant/finn 30 model , and whether it will heat a room 10x11. 8 feet high.

Thank you gentlemen,

 

[gmartine]

Seems low for that size of room but depends what else is on the circuit and the heat loss calculations if any were done but I'd have thought 1/4 inch could carry 900btu or 260w which is the output of the 8ft, your 5.5 ft rad is obviously rated at a lot less (approx 175W).

 

[John93]

Thanks for replying gmartine. I agree that based on all the online calculators and also some calls I made to a few plumbers. The consensus is that 5'5" is not enough.

When I contacted the plumber who did the installation, to ask how he calculated the rad size, he blew up on me and started to yell and insult me.

I did not want to escalate the matter as I did not have a clear picture of what needs to happen. Did not want to burn any bridges preemptively.

If I report this to the building, they may or may not side with me. And they may or may not go after him legally. The management here are one of the reasons I wish to leave in the near future. They are part of the problem and have repeatedly screwed me over on this rad issue, until I got a lawyer involved.

I would go after him, but the building paid for the rad replacement. And I am not sure what the best course of action is. As they may decide to see how much heat it actually outputs. Before taking any sort of action.

Any advice from anyone who has been through something similar? Should I press the matter? Or wait until winter to see if the room will be at a reasonable temperature?

Would the room be unbearable? The thing should put out some level of heat even at 5'5". I wonder if opening up the valves to fully open, could help? Other factors here. Double pane windows. Good insulation. One outside facing wall. Any chance this could be passable?

When the plumber blew up and started to insult me. He threatened that he would just come by and remove everything and not take any money. But the pipes are so old and brittle, the last thing I want is for this guy to come back in an angry state, to either change the rad to a stronger model or tamper with the valves. Which he did a very good job in handling. It's just a bad situation. I trusted that this guy would have enough sense to replace the rad with an equivalent model. He swindled me and now to fix his error, I literally have to go to war and involve all kinds of people in this building. Not sure what the wisest approach may be.

 

[gmartine]

You're possibly over-reacting as the length of this thread indicates, you didn't pay so you really haven't been swindled. Building management should have ensured the correct size radiator was installed and if it isn't you need to tell them so contact your lawyer if you can't deal with them face to face. If they fail to act you may need an official report saying the radiator is undersized (if it is) and take it further. If the original installer needs to be called back then do so, his mood and the condition of the pipework should not be your concern if he's made a mistake or knowingly undersized the radiator.

 

[John93]

Thanks again gmartine. I went ahead and advised the building what the plumber has done. I relayed all the pertinent points. Hopefully they will investigate and take corrective measures to have this rad replaced.

If they decide to not replace it, and instead see how much heat will actually be generated. Do you have some rough idea of what temperatures I can expect? The room is well insulated. Double pane windows. Rooms above and below are heated. There is carpet in that bedroom.

Is there any chance that a 5'5" rad can heat 110 square feet? I don't need the room to be perfect. Just some reasonable temperature would suffice.

 

[MARTIN LISTER]

Hydrogen sulphide gas venting from inside the radiator?

 

[John93]

Martin,

I don't think the old rad was venting sulphide gas. If you look at the pics in the thread. Who ever painted the rad before I bought this place, used multiple layers. And it appears like the top layers have formed a kind of seal, where the layer closest to the rad is off gassing, but the now hardened multiple layers surrounding it, are sealing it in and not really letting it burn off.

To Gmartin. I got screwed because this is a co-op property. Meaning I am the owner of this unit. The building is supposed to replace the rad. But now that this guy has used insufficient length, my main concern is not enough heat and down the road, difficulty selling this unit. Yes they paid for it. But it does not appear like they are going to go after this plumber to get him to put in the correct rad.

My question went out to any plumbers who may be able to predict if 5'5" will sufficiently heat a room that is well insulated. Heated rooms above and below. Double pane windows. Carpet. I think the building wants to see how much heat will actually be produced. I was not over reacting. I have had to get a lawyer involved just to get the building to replace the rad. They were supposed to replace it way back in 2014. Dropped it without any warning. It is only when I acted on the advice that JTS gave me, getting a lawyer involved, that the building finally took action. But the plumber screwed up. And now it is uncertain whether 5'5" will produce enough heat to comfortably use that space.

Not only did the plumber knowingly use the wrong rad to pocket more money for himself. But the building is not exactly on my side, and will not likely go after this guy. Which means I will have to go after them.

I don't know if they have co-ops in the UK. But moving into this kind of arrangement was a huge mistake. I regret it, and am trying to get the rad sorted so as to sell it and move out. But the problems persist. As if the plumber is not enough of a pain, the building does not want to do what is called for which is to get this guy to replace the rad with the correct model.

So yes, while I did not pay for it. The potentially insufficient rad, may affect my ability to sell this unit, and that is definitely screwing me over. To which there is no over reaction. Only an attempt to equalize and set right what has been misdone.

To anyone not familiar with co-ops. There is a board of directors. They are supposed to be chosen by the rest of the shareholders. But in some cases, as in this building, the majority of the owners do not want the burden of being on the board. And so the people who are left over and put to that task, are not only under qualified, but ill tempered and just generally the bottom of the barrel. These kinds of people can sometimes worm their way into positions of authority or decision making. And that is what has happened here, and it is the #1 reason I want out. The rad is the only thing that requires attention, as I do not want to do to the new owners what the previous owner did to me, which was sell me a unit with a rad that was off gassing.

Of course the obvious answer is to wait and see what the rad outputs. But my question was geared towards anyone who may have experience with this sort of thing and perhaps can relay some idea as to what I can expect.