Rate of heating in a living room?

[Mossop]

If a radiator has been correctly sized for a room and the boiler is adequate and fully functioning, at what rate of C/Hour would you want a living room to be able to heat up at?

Thanks.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Should be able to heat the room up in under 30 mins

 

[Mossop]

So if it's heating up the room at a rate of between 2.5C - 3.0C / hour, this is too slow? I think it's too slow, but wondering what opinions are.

This is with heating system at ~60C at the boiler, and the thermostatic valve radiator turned up full.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

So if it's heating up the room at a rate of between 2.5C - 3.0C / hour, this is too slow? I think it's too slow, but wondering what opinions are.

This is with heating system at ~60C at the boiler, and the thermostatic valve radiator turned up full.

rad sounds undersized

 

[Mossop]

rad sounds undersized

Having used several online calculators the highest BTU I get on any calculator is 3788 BTU using: Radiator Sizing Calculator - BTU and KW - http://www.radcalcer.co.uk/ for the room.

The radiator BTU output according to the manufacturer is 8218 BTU.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What’s your room size height etc
Windows
Outside walls etc

 

[SJB060685]

You say you have a flow temperature of 60°c? Is this a condensing boiler. If using delta t 50 rads they won't be working anywhere near full output. The power required is the output needed at a design outside temperature to design end internal temperature to bring the room upto temperature and keep it there, bare in mind the air change rate, so a lot of the power is required to re heat and maintain. With the system designed and executed properly you should be nice and toasty in about 30 minutes as Shaun says above.

 

[John.g]

How long roughly with a properly sized rad from 18c to 20C, assume ambient of 5C.

 

[Mossop]

You say you have a flow temperature of 60°c? Is this a condensing boiler.

It's a WB Combi 30i boiler with the rad below:

1800 x 470mm White Vertical Traditional 3 Column Radiator

These 1800 x 470mm vertical column radiators are a perfect radiator for increasing warmth in your home whilst keeping an old fashioned traditional look.

www.radiatoroutlet.co.uk

I believe BTU measurements on that site are based on delta t 50 C.

I went looking for a tape measure there so I wouldn't be estimating the measurements. Measurements are:

Room size: 3.16 m X 2.94 m X 2.66 m (Height)
One window (Single glazed): 0.80 m x 1.53 m

Only one exterior wall which is cavity wall insulated. Mid terraced house.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

From -10 to 21dc 14 mins so something isn’t right

does the rad get hot hot eg 60dc ish

 

[Mossop]

From -10 to 21dc 14 mins so something isn’t right

does the rad get hot hot eg 60dc ish

I have pointed a contact free thermometer pointed very close to the rad and it gives a temp of ~58 C.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I have pointed a contact free thermometer pointed very close to the rad and it gives a temp of ~58 C.

I would say the specs that the manufacturer has claimed are over zealous and would estimate it to emit around 1.5-1.8 kw (max)as it’s basically a single panel rad

 

[Mossop]

I would say the specs that the manufacturer has claimed are over zealous and would estimate it to emit around 1.5-1.8 kw (max)as it’s basically a single panel rad

Thanks.

I suppose there's no way to guesstimate what BTU size I should really be looking for for this type of rad on this site? That is, using their BTU measurements.

It will get the room up to 21C/22C but it takes hours to do so.

What kW would you normally want to get from a radiator?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

That’s a 1.2x600 double panel double convector eg k2

 

[Mossop]

Unfortunately I don't have a plumbing background, so I'm unsure what exactly this means.

I understand that k2 is a type of rad. Do you mean if using a double panel 1.2m x 600mm K2 rad this would give an average BTU output of 7401 BTU?

The current rad type which I have would probably need to be a lot bigger to heat up the room in 30 minutes since it's heating the room at ~ 2.5C - 3.0C / hour.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Unfortunately I don't have a plumbing background, so I'm unsure what exactly this means.

I understand that k2 is a type of rad. Do you mean if using a double panel 1.2m x 600mm K2 rad this would give an average BTU output of 7401 BTU?

The current rad type which I have would probably need to be a lot bigger to heat up the room in 30 minutes since it's heating the room at ~ 2.5C - 3.0C / hour.

correct

or another rad installed in the same room eg two rads

 

[Mossop]

correct

or another rad installed in the same room eg two rads

So essentially if I wanted to get this make/model of rad to heat the room up in a reasonable amount of time (and I only wanted one rad as it's a small room) the rad may need to be in the region of twice the output size of the one currently installed?

 

[John.g]

So essentially if I wanted to get this make/model of rad to heat the room up in a reasonable amount of time (and I only wanted one rad as it's a small room) the rad may need to be in the region of twice the output size of the one currently installed?

Also because you are running with a boiler temp of 60C then you will only be getting ~ 65% of a 50 deg rad output or ~ 4810 BTU (1.4kw).

 

[Mossop]

It looks like their only larger rad of this style is:

1800 x 560mm White Vertical Traditional 3 Column Radiator

Create an old fashioned traditional look with these vertical column radiators, 1800 x 560mm and triple layered for extra warmth.

www.radiatoroutlet.co.uk

which has 9163 BTU as opposed to the 8218 BTU for the one which I have. I'd guess this won't make a huge difference in getting the room warmed in 30 minutes, so perhaps I might look at some other radiator design.

Also because you are running with a boiler temp of 60C then you will only be getting ~ 65% of a 50 deg rad output or ~ 4810 BTU (1.4kw).

Should the boiler temp be run at a different temperature? I've set the WB combi to the recommended "e" setting and this is usually about 60C.

 

[John.g]

It looks like their only larger rad of this style is:

1800 x 560mm White Vertical Traditional 3 Column Radiator

Create an old fashioned traditional look with these vertical column radiators, 1800 x 560mm and triple layered for extra warmth.

www.radiatoroutlet.co.uk

which has 9163 BTU as opposed to the 8218 BTU for the one which I have. I'd guess this won't make a huge difference in getting the room warmed in 30 minutes, so perhaps I might look at some other radiator design.


Should the boiler temp be run at a different temperature? I've set the WB combi to the recommended "e" setting and this is usually about 60C.

If you increased the boiler temp to 75C and with a radiator deltaT of 15C, you would then almost have a 50 deg (47.5) rad again or 94%% output but the boiler is then running with a return temp of 60C which is very uneconomic, if you run with a delta T of 20c you are down to 87% output, all rads should really IMO be oversized by a factor of at least 1.5 to allow for condensing boilers which run most efficiently with return temperatures of 50C or less.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

It looks like their only larger rad of this style is:

1800 x 560mm White Vertical Traditional 3 Column Radiator

Create an old fashioned traditional look with these vertical column radiators, 1800 x 560mm and triple layered for extra warmth.

www.radiatoroutlet.co.uk

which has 9163 BTU as opposed to the 8218 BTU for the one which I have. I'd guess this won't make a huge difference in getting the room warmed in 30 minutes, so perhaps I might look at some other radiator design.


Should the boiler temp be run at a different temperature? I've set the WB combi to the recommended "e" setting and this is usually about 60C.

Tbh I wouldn’t trust there output as your having problems with the lack of heat

 

[SJB060685]

Can I just add modern condensing boilers are looking for a DT of 20°c. If you were to adjust the flow temperature to 75°c and keep the DT at 15°c then the mean radiator temperature does increase and increase its output but you're then running a return too high for condensing and this is not desirable for efficiency or the life expectancy of the boiler.
To maximise condensing you really want a lower temperature system but as I said above the size of the emitters will need to be reconsidered.

 

[John.g]

I suppose there are two calculations that the heating engineer should do when sizing radiators, one is the calculation for the heat loss and the other for the correction factor to apply to a 50 deg rad. A required return temp of 40C with deltaT of 20C will result in a 30 deg rad based on a required room temp of 20C or a 27 deg rad based on a more realistic required temp of 23C, this will result respectively in 51.5% output and a correction factor of 1.94 or 44.9% output with a correction factor of 2.22, so as suggested with the above slow warm up problem, maybe install another rad of the same size?. It would be interesting if the flow and return temps were actually measured in the above case as the "58C" measurement implies a delta T of 4C (boiler temp 60C) which is unlikely IMO.

Maybe the new norm should be 30 degree Rads, it wasn't so mighty long ago that the 60 degree Rads were.

 

[Mossop]

The radiator in question has a BTU output according to the manufacturer of 8218 BTU at delta 50 C.
Room size: 3.16 m X 2.94 m X 2.66 m (Height)
One window (Single glazed): 0.80 m x 1.53 m

Would anyone care to suggest any other makes/models of vertical radiators that I could take a look at that might heat the room in 30 minutes or so with just one radiator?

That is, radiators which are 1800 mm max x 560 mm max.
[automerge]1607263215[/automerge]
I found this interesting:

Original rad: 1800 X 470mm Vertical 3 Column Radiator. BTU: 8218

1800 x 470mm White Vertical Traditional 3 Column Radiator

These 1800 x 470mm vertical column radiators are a perfect radiator for increasing warmth in your home whilst keeping an old fashioned traditional look.

www.radiatoroutlet.co.uk

Rad B: 1800 H X 490 W 3 Column Vertical Radiator. BTU: 5664 at delta T 50 C

1800H x 490W 3 Column Vertical Raw Metal Lacquered Radiator - Column Rads UK

Find out more about the 1800H x 490W 3 Column Vertical Raw Metal Lacquered Radiator at Column Rads UK

www.columnrads.co.uk

Rad C: 3 Column Vertical Radiator 1800x470mm . BTU: 7463 at delta 50 C

Athens Dove Grey Triple Column Vertical Traditional Radiator 1800x470mm | Bathroom Mountain

Designer bathrooms at everyday low prices

bathroommountain.co.uk

These are broadly similar rads in terms of height, width, style and number of columns. Presumably with 3-column traditional styled rads of 1800mm in height and the same width should give a broaly similar output? Presumably manufacturer's aren't able to produce a much larger BTU output for a broadly similar product compared to others?

I suppose the 5664 BTU figure is probably the type of figure one should assume this type of rad would be capable of outputting?

 

[John.g]

This site has numerous posts re problems with vertical rads, some have to be installed in a certain way as they have a baffle to get the water circulating properly and apparently sometimes this isn't pointed out in the installation instructions. I would suggest taking numerous temperature readings on the columns and make a little sketch with the temps noted on it, as a very quick check you might just measure the temperatures at the flow and return connections, if these are only a few degrees apart then IMO you have a problem, just feeling the rad all over even should tell a lot.

 

[Mossop]

This site has numerous posts re problems with vertical rads, some have to be installed in a certain way as they have a baffle to get the water circulating properly and apparently sometimes this isn't pointed out in the installation instructions. I would suggest taking numerous temperature readings on the columns and make a little sketch with the temps noted on it, as a very quick check you might just measure the temperatures at the flow and return connections, if these are only a few degrees apart then IMO you have a problem, just feeling the rad all over even should tell a lot.

Apparently, with regards to the vertical rad which I have, there is no specific flow/return and it can be installed either way.

I did feel over the rad when it was at 21/22C and it did appear to be hot all over.

I'll take various temps as you have suggested. I think I read somewhere that the flow and return temps on the rad should be approx 11C apart.

 

[gpbeck]

In very cold weather that single glazed window is an “anti radiator”, 20deg cooler than the room. Also no radiator beneath it which was traditionally used to reverse a descending cold draught. Do the heat calc with double glazing, might be cost effective to double glaze (secondary glazing? or heavy curtain) since this will also reduce heat loss from the only outside wall.

 

[Mossop]

I suppose there are two calculations that the heating engineer should do when sizing radiators, one is the calculation for the heat loss and the other for the correction factor to apply to a 50 deg rad. A required return temp of 40C with deltaT of 20C will result in a 30 deg rad based on a required room temp of 20C or a 27 deg rad based on a more realistic required temp of 23C, this will result respectively in 51.5% output and a correction factor of 1.94 or 44.9% output with a correction factor of 2.22, so as suggested with the above slow warm up problem, maybe install another rad of the same size?. It would be interesting if the flow and return temps were actually measured in the above case as the "58C" measurement implies a delta T of 4C (boiler temp 60C) which is unlikely IMO.

So, the radiator takes ~25 minutes to warm up from the "off" position of 11 C until it achieves it's maximum of 57 C.

This would appear to me to be an issue as it was said at the start of the thread that one might expect a room to warm up in 30 minutes. Obviously that won't be achievable if it takes almost this amount of time for the rad to fully heat up.

At the larger value side (thermostatic) I measured a temperature of 54.2 C and at the smaller value side a temperature of 56.7 C. There were sometimes variations, but generally it's about 2.5 C colder on the thermostatic valve side.

I didn't notice any cold spots on the rad using the contactless thermometer.

 

[John.g]

Re rad warm up time of 25 minutes, assume this with a hot boiler & system?
If from a cold boiler & system then not unusual.

Your rad with flow/return of 56.6C/54.2c is a 35.5 deg rad with a output of 64%, so 5259 BTU or 1.54 kw.

At your measured deltaT of 2.4C and 1.54 kw the rad would need to circulate at 9.2 LPM, the two rad valves alone would need a head of 5.8M or say a 6M pump to give this flow rate so possible I suppose but unlikely even ignoring the probably very small head loss of the rad itself, but even if only circulating 5 LPM then the rad output with a deltaT of 4C will still give close to 1.4 kw output.

The TRV is installed on the return, ensure it is bi directional (arrows pointing both ways), I would open it fully, remove the head and using the shaft of a a reversed hammer press the actuating pin firmly in, it should spring out but the movement is only ~ 5MM,

 

[Mossop]

The TRV is installed on the return, ensure it is bi directional (arrows pointing both ways), I would open it fully, remove the head and using the shaft of a a reversed hammer press the actuating pin firmly in, it should spring out but the movement is only ~ 5MM,

With regards to the point above, the valve retailer states that they, "recommend installing the wheel head on the flow in and the lock-shield on the return."

I'm not a plumber - is this the opposite of what you have above?

 

[John.g]

Normally, you will get/buy a pair of radiator vaves, one will have a plastic wheel head with which you can open and shut as required, the other (return end, recommende) will also have a plastic wheel head but this is only a cover and turning it has no effect, you just pull this up and open and shut this valve with a adjustable spanner, if your system is balanced then this valve will be set to 1/16,1/4,/1/2, or whatever open and don't touch this again, hence the lockshield name, you just the replace the plastic cap and if you wish to shut off the rad you just shut the the other one, when its reopened then the rad is still balanced.

You said
"At the larger value side (thermostatic) I measured a temperature of 54.2 C and at the smaller value side a temperature of 56.7 C. There were sometimes variations, but generally it's about 2.5 C colder on the thermostatic valve side "
This means to me that you have a thermostatic radiator valve (TRV) installed on the return and a wheelhead valve at the flow end, normally, it is recommended that the TRV is fitted on the flow side and the wheelhead on the return, they can be installed as yours appear to be but then the TRV must be of the bi directional type, ie, two arrows on the valve body, some installers here say that even if bi directional that they should always be installed on the flow side, mine are all on the return.
Can you post a pic of both to make sure we are talking about the same thing?

 

[Mossop]

068 Traditional TRV Angled Brushed (Satin) Nickel Thermostatic Radiator Valves - Column Radiators 4u

Radiator Valves 4u, Radiator Valve > Thermostatic > Traditional, Brushed (Satin) Nickel, Height: 133mm, Width: 87mm, Depth: 55mm

www.columnradiators4u.co.uk

The link above shows the valves which I have installed.


I've had a look and I do not see any arrow(s) indicating any direction. I re-took the time for how long it takes the rad to get to maximum temperature when the heating is already fired up, and it takes up to 20 minutes for the radiator to reach maximum temperature.

I re-took the temperature at the valve ends and I get:
53 C at the TRV end, and 57.10 C at the lock-shield valve.

So:
a) I'm consistently getting a higher temperature at the lockshield end
b) the retailer states that they "always recommend installing the wheel head on the flow in and the lock-shield on the return"
c) I do not see any directional arrows
d) the rad itself can have the flow/return attached to either side

So perhaps it could be concluded that the valves are not bi-directional, and that the flow/return pipes have been attached to the wrong valves?

 

[John.g]

Your pipework is OK as the rad has no special instructions, the TRV and the Lockshield should be swapped, ie the TRV on the flow & lockshield on return but what actual difference this makes to the flow I've no idea, perhaps none. I've never seen that type of TRV and looking at its spec it doesn't say Bi directional but I would suspect not.

Heat up time of 20 minutes seems very long but again if these are cast iron maybe normal, I'm sure some one on here can advise, the measured flow/return temps of 57.1C/53C, with a deltaT of 4.1C even though still low IMO are possible but if its not normal for the rads to take this 20 minutes heat up time then the hot water may be partly short circuiting and not giving you the output of a 35 deg rad, ie 5177 BTU or 1.52kw.

Practically speaking my only suggestion is to get hold of a oil filled rad or equivalent, turn off the rad, set the electric heater to whatever power settings are available and that should point you in the right direction. My oil filled rad has three settings, 0.8kw(2730BTU), 1.2kw(4094BTU) and 2kw(6824BTU)

 

[Mossop]

Heat up time of 20 minutes seems very long but again if these are cast iron maybe normal, I'm sure some one on here can advise,

It's a steel radiator, just in the style of a traditional column rad.

Practically speaking my only suggestion is to get hold of a oil filled rad or equivalent, turn off the rad, set the electric heater to whatever power settings are available and that should point you in the right direction. My oil filled rad has three settings, 0.8kw(2730BTU), 1.2kw(4094BTU) and 2kw(6824BTU)

Do you mean an electric oil-filled rad which has an electrical plug which is plugged into the electrical socket on the wall and is unconnected to the central heating system?

 

[John.g]

Yes, any kind of electric heater of known power that you plug in to get a comparison, I can't think of any other way.