Safety Drop Test

[Bernie2]

I was "Googling" the other day out of interest to find out if there is much information on how to do a domestic safety gas drop test.

Surprisingly I found very little.

I thought it seems the next step is not tell drivers what the centre pedal is for in their cars.

Old hands will tell you people can't always rely on smelling gas, to find they have a leak, but they should know how drop tests are conducted even if they don't or can't do it themselves. That way they can ask for one to be done.

Just seems a bit soft not to have this safety information freely available.

 

[wards]

I was "Googling" the other day out of interest to find out if there is much information on how to do a domestic safety gas drop test.

Surprisingly I found very little.

I thought it seems the next step is not tell drivers what the centre pedal is for in their cars.

Old hands will tell you people can't always rely on smelling gas, to find they have a leak, but they should know how drop tests are conducted even if they don't or can't do it themselves. That way they can ask for one to be done.

Just seems a bit soft not to have this safety information freely available.

why would joe public want to know about tightness test?

 

[newbie1]

joe public shouldnt be doing a drop/tightness test

 

[andyg0507]

got a agree with newbie1 there, why would joe bloggs need to know how to do a tightness bernie?? please elaborate. (big word for a friday night)

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Why shouldn't a person know that a drop test is required to test a gas system?


After all it's the public who live in houses and if a leak develops or they may suspect one for reasons other than a smell of gas, they should know the required tests.

Why the secrecy?

I think all this "Don't tell the public" is just plain silly.

Its a bit like not publishing the highway code.

Gas fitting should be open to be understood by all in the interests of safety.

Lets be honest you might know how to build a house, but if the law does not allow you to do it, your hardly likely to go out and build one are you?

But your house building knowledge might possibly help you know a well built one from a badly built one when you saw it.

Same with gas fitting. If the public know a good job when they see it and what is safe, they will probably respect the work of a gas fitter more.

In point if they know what is really involved they may not even try to have go themselves if they where going to. So telling people how things work can improve safety not make it more dangerous.

But pretending gas fitting knowledge is a secret society thing only open to those who hold the ACS would seem silly.

 

[wards]

Hmm!

Why shouldn't a person know that a drop test is required to test a gas system?


After all it's the public who live in houses and if a leak develops or they may suspect one for reasons other than a smell of gas, they should know the required tests.

Why the secrecy?

I think all this "Don't tell the public" is just plain silly.

Its a bit like not publishing the highway code.

Gas fitting should be open to be understood by all in the interests of safety.

Lets be honest you might know how to build a house, but if the law does not allow you to do it, your hardly likely to go out and build one are you?

But your house building knowledge might possibly help you know a well built one from a badly built one when you saw it.

Same with gas fitting. If the public know a good job when they see it and what is safe, they will probably respect the work of a gas fitter more.

In point if they know what is really involved they may not even try to have go themselves if they where going to. So telling people how things work can improve safety not make it more dangerous.

But pretending gas fitting knowledge is a secret society thing only open to those who hold the ACS would seem silly.

and then they will think they have the knowledge to what?bit of a silly if not stupid topic to open,imo.

 

[Bernie2]

Hi! Ward

Don't understand your reply?

I don't think gas safety is a silly topic. There might not be much free information on the net about gas testing, but Google it and see how many seem willing to sell it to you?

So the information is not secret, its getting like a lot of information seems to be now days, its available at a price.

My point is that safety information should be free if it is intended to safeguard people.

I also feel that the public should know what they are paying a gas fitter for when they come out to do work. Lets be frank we should all be able to justify what we charge for our labour. Do we give value for money?

 

[prs1]

No iam not competant to carryout gas work,but was only doing a drop test,how was i to know it would go wrong.
THATS WHY WE HAVE AN 0800 NUMBER FOR NATIONAL GRID WHICH ANYONE CAN PHONE FOR FREE AND WHY THEY ATTEND FOR FREE!
SO someone competant can make it safe for them.
That comment really takes the buiscuit you are advocating it ok for joe public to carry out gas work!
That cant be right.

Didnt some one once say "that a little knowledge can be dangerous"!

 

[archiedale]

Its done at a set pressure for a set period of time, but some drops are permissible so needs to be done by a competent person FULL STOP

 

[Bernie2]

Problem is "No knowledge is more dangerous than none". People don't walk on cliff edges because the knowledge of what can happen if they fall off.

Nobody is advocating that a person does a drop test if they are not competent, just that they should know what is required to do one and what the standard tests are.

Often as I have said earlier people don't always smell gas and Transco out. Anyway all Transco will do, is shut off the gas and seal the supply if its not on their side of the meter. What happens to the internal pipework is then up to the landlord or the house holder not Transco.

Surely telling people how a drop test should be done, is safer than perhaps letting them have a go themselves without knowing any safety test standards, that is of course if they decide to do it themselves?

Lets be honest, if people decide they want to do the work themselves Transco or anybody else is not likely to stop them before they do, they simply will not tell anybody, just go ahead and do it.

If they do that, then I for one prefer, they have some knowledge of whats involved in doing the job than none at all. I am not advocating they do it, just that they know what is involved especially from a safety point of view.

I simply don't understand you guys, why you seem so secretive about gas fitting safety procedures.

What does a person say if the house blows up from some job they thought they where doing right, but they had no idea about the safety tests involved, so did not do any.

I am very sorry I can't stop people doing dodgy work, but perhaps I can make them aware of the safety angle before they do it. And knowing what is involved in a drop test and other gas testing is certainly a safety point.

Another aspect is. What if you call a local gas company and they are cowboys, plenty on the telly. How do you know as the customer whether they have done a good job or not if you have no idea what the safety test should be?

How many cowboy builders are shown on the telly.

How many householders paid over money for bad work?

Would they have done so if they had known how the job should be done.

How many people come on the forum moaning about work done in their homes and whether its up to standard or not, because they don't know anything about the standards required.

Bit late then I feel?

What they come on the forum for is to find out if the work is okay. And we usually tell them if it is.

Please don't assume everybody who knows what is what about gas is immediately going out to start a business.

I have been on course, where the gas engineer giving the course has said he would not register himself. In other words he teaches it he doesn't do it.

How many training agency instructors are Gas Safe registered?

They don't have to be, for its only when you physically break a gas train in the pursuit of reward do you need to be registered, but you have to be competent to do so otherwise.

Having gas knowledge is not a crime. But it sure helps you decide whether the work your having done is up to standard or not. And yes I suppose helps you decide whether you are getting value for money off the gas fitter. So I for one feel that if a customer knows that their gas safety checks have been done properly it goes some way to reassuring them it should be okay.

Seems to me that sometimes people seem afraid to tell their customers what they are doing in their homes. I have always had a good response when telling customers what I am doing and why. In point it sometimes seems to have led to more work not less.

 

[newbie1]

bernie havnt got a clue why you are advocating joe public knowing how to do tightness testing?????
joe public shouldnt under any circumstances be doing a drop test and i see no good reason for them to even know procedure
nothing to do with secrecy they just shouldnt be doing it

 

[prs1]

"Often as I have said earlier people don't always smell gas and Transco out. Anyway all Transco will do, is shut off the gas and seal the supply if its not on their side of the meter. What happens to the internal pipework is then up to the landlord or the house holder not Transco"

What do u think Transco should do give em a can of ldf and say u sort it.
Alot of reconnection ive done Transco have located the leak and made safe there for the customer knows exactly what needs to be fixed before anyone gets there!
What better safer way!
advised to get a professional in.
Wht should a tutor be GSR?

 

[Puddle]

nothing to do with secrecy they just shouldnt be doing it

Well thanks a lot Newbie,thats shattered the illution,I have always got a buzz from doing secret drop tests and being a members of a orginisation carring out secret rituals.When I do a drop test, have a long monks rope with the gas safe symbol on the back that I ware and often when the gas meter is in the basement,customers can hear me chanting ancent safety chants while doing test,now the cats out of the bag,will have to tone ritual down

I can think of no reason to provide information to people who are not allowed to do tests,all they need to know is gas work has to be done by a competant,gas safe reg person
There is no reason for a teacher to be gas safe,why would there be,he does have to have the correct qualifications though and obviously the class room is a special exception ,as trainees are not gas reg until qualified
As regards cowboys,all the customer has to do is check thier gas safe card/reg,thats all they need to know,if they do not/choose not to do that ,knowing how a test is done is not going to help the test being done by a cowboy,unless it is suggested there are gas safe cowboys and as far as I am aware that is and never has been the case
The above goes for other regulated trades as well,if customers are to ignorant to do basic id credential checks,think asking them to do much else is a bit much,of course these lazy people who cry afterwards are alway ready to blame everyone else
most customers I know check regs to see if they can get round something,not to see if something is done right
We as reg gas plumbers have a reasponsibily for the safety of our customers and some people do not like this,they think they should be responsible for thier own safety,my answer to this is ,you can,by deciding to get a gas reg plumber in

imho

 

[prs1]

Well said puddle "here here"!
By the way id be interested in buying one of them robes-and u forgot to mention the secret hand shake!

 

[archiedale]

XL for me please, yellow and black full lenght...........

 

[kirkgas]

the comparison between the highway code and a "Drop test" as you call it is all wrong, they publish the highway code so that learners can learn the rules then get qualified and use it to refresh themselves of the rules, a tightness test procedure is published in training manuals and in relevant BS document to allow a learner to learn and an experienced person to refresh, google how a hospital prepares someone for a life saving operation, you wont find much as it is not relevant to know, if you need the op the hospital know what to do, same with flying a plane, why do you need to know how to fly a plane IF you only intend to sit in the back and go on holiday, and not to try to fly it yourself, or are you saying if you knew how to fly a plane you would know if the pilot wasnt making a good job of it, the info for doing a tightness test isnt secret but is merely confined to those who are qualified, it would be far more beneficial if joe public realised that gas work should not be done by anyone not registered to try to ensure safety is maintained ( i say try to maintain as there are gas engineers who do not do the best all the time, same in any industry i suppose)

 

[easyt]

I can see no good reason why I (Joe public) should not know when a pressure test is needed or how it should be done. Just because I should never carry it out myself is not a good reason IMHO.

I and most of the public know how to commit murder but don't do it. It is just comforting to know that what is required is carried out. As for relying on experts .. there are good and bad everywhere. I recently had a trained technician and later the local building control officer tell me that I needed a 1 hour firewall for a replacement oil tank. As I had the knowledge available I was able to correct them and show them what they should have known ie that 1/2 hour was the re requirement.

Knowledge empowers.

 

[Spudhater]

Reminds me of a quote i went to couple of months back for a boiler swop, before i got through the door the customer said.. " i`ve already worked out how much it will cost " needless to say i never got back to him...

"A little knowledge is dangerous" that is why i get my car done by a mechanic!!!!

 

[easyt]

Reminds me of a quote i went to couple of months back for a boiler swop, before i got through the door the customer said.. " i`ve already worked out how much it will cost " needless to say i never got back to him...

"A little knowledge is dangerous" that is why i get my car done by a mechanic!!!!

I hope that you are not inferring that I am a know-All,

I am sure that you know what is involved in changing disc pads and discs for example. You choose not to do it because you wish it done by a competent person.

In the instance I quoted it would have meant my spending an awful lot of money to build a 2m high 3m long wall (I guess 1.5B thick) with footings going down some 700mm. A lot more expensive than £600 for a prefabricated fire barrier.

Similarly if a gas man were to do work on my property I would wish to know that he should carry out an appropriate test to ensure the work was sound and what that test was. This for my own safety. Sadly there are incompetent, lazy or slapdash folk even amongst trained and certified folk.

If I asked you to give me a quote I would probably try to have a realistic idea of what the likely fair price would be (ball park figure). If you were to give me a price I would then be able to say 'sounds in the right area' or 'higher than I expected'.

I agree a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing for those who are prepared to do unauthorised work. Not knowing safety procedures will not however stop those sort. The other saying is 'forewarned is forearmed'.

 

[Bernie2]

Hmm!

Okay then, put it this way. The members of the public can buy a copy of Tolley's, a Viper book or one of many others or just borrow it from the library and just read the procedures as they want too, Gas Registered or not.

So if safety info is for sale, why is it not free?

Why do you all seem to think, people given the information all of a sudden want to do their own work?

If you went into a garage and ordered new tyres for your car, how would you know if they had fitted remoulds or not, if you knew nothing about cars?

If you look at Health and Safety work practises you will find a responsible person has to check all the working practises in Risk Assessment surveys. They may know next to nothing, about what they are assessing, but they are still required to do it.

Doesn't it make sense for them to be shown something about what they are to Risk Assess?

The HSE thinks so.

And the HSE are the Gas industries governing body when it comes to regulation, not the people who work in it, I am sure if you ask them about customers knowing how a gas drop test is done and when it is required, they would agree. They even publish flueing diagrams, but people don't all of a sudden start installing their own flues.

You guys go on as though the ACS is like joining the magical circle or something which gives you the right to keep secrets and charge a bomb for doing so.

I sympathies with having to pay thousands of pounds out to get trained but that is a fault of the industry not the customers.

You could of course ask to see a persons Gas Registered card, but that means nothing much really only to say they have completed a course. And it assumes all card holders are good at their job.

On this forum many people seem to come on moaning about companies that are registered. But some make it seem registered gas fitters can't make mistakes, but its the customers house they usually make the mistakes in.

Give the punter a chance, let him find out by watching you work and you explaining what your doing. Once they know a bit, they can then decide whether you know what your doing or not.

Mind you, if a company charge £100 to fit a £2.50p thermocouple, they may not want them to know?

So if the customer has no idea about how things are supposed to be done, how will they know if the job is done well or not or whether they are getting over charged?

Knowledge can act as a safety feature as well as promote misuse. But then if you don't know its against the Gas Regs to use a Registered GaSafe person your probably going to go ahead and do the work anyway.

 

[easyt]

I think I am with you on this Bernie.

To give an idea of competence of some fitters- a few years ago my youngest used up the last of the heating oil whilst I was on holiday I know. my fault!! I had a refill I called the usual firm to come and bleed the boiler. They made a mistake and forgot to book it. When I phoned them they aranged for a subcontractor to do what should be a simple job. 1.5hrs later he left and said he would have to return tommorow. I phoned the company and told them no way was the guy coming back I wanted someone competent, When the usual guy turned up I said to him 'I would have thought that yo could just crack this joint here to drain and it shouldn't take more than half hour to do and carry out a general check'. He said that I was correct. 20 mins later job done and at my instigation oil tank connection also checked as first guy had been there unattended. Obviously first guys work was not paid for by me.

Just to show that not all trades people are competent.

 

[newbie1]

just what i need a punter staring over my shoulder while working and asking questions

 

[oldplumber]

just what i need a punter staring over my shoulder while working and asking questions

easy to stop that one, just let one rip from all that beer you drank last night and blame their dog, they wont want to hang around watching you then.lol

 

[Bernie2]

If you are doing your job right, a punter looking over your shoulder should not really annoy anybody.

Perhaps makes you a bit nervous but that is all.

I have worked on gas fire services where the whole family have come and sat in a circle to watch while I do it. I thought I was in a show.

But hey!

Its their lives at risk if I get things wrong, so I figure they have every right to watch. And it gives you time to explain things to people.

 

[easyt]

Punters to need to know about regs in general terms. I am shortly (July) undertaking a bathroom refit. When I refit the bathroom I am making provision beneath the shower for a new condensate pipe. I am only doing this because I know that (according to regs) my next boiler will be a condensing boiler and the only feasible route from its present inglenook location is through the shower area.

 

[stevetheplumber]

Punters to need to know about regs in general terms. I am shortly (July) undertaking a bathroom refit. When I refit the bathroom I am making provision beneath the shower for a new condensate pipe. I am only doing this because I know that (according to regs) my next boiler will be a condensing boiler and the only feasible route from its present inglenook location is through the shower area.

i doubt if your new boiler will go back in an inglenook and having 240 electric condensate pump anywhere near a shower is gonna be a problem

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

what an interesting debate!

i have mixed feelings as they're are cowboys so when i have work done on my car i ask for the replaced parts to be left in the boot, partly so i dont get ripped off and partly cuz i like playing with them and seeing why they failed etc

Gas safety is a important so that is the reason that Gasafe existing so that all gas appliances are fitted by competent installers and correctly (in theory). yes they're will be the bodgers and now and then people will die due to CO poisoning but we then have the ability to trace the installer and punish

I am not saying it is ok for people to die I am trying to say that it is the way we work. If information was available for the public to see how testing was carried would they bother to read it?

My friends wouldn't. they admit when it comes to gas get a pro in and he will now what to do, its an asumption that he (or she, sorry) is competent but it is an assumption we have to make. I have to make it when my car is serviced. no point them checking it after its finished and then me buying a haynes manual to check they checked it.

In short I think it may be treated as a secret but thats one way of looking at it. Its on a need to know basis. get a CO detector if you are worried.

 

[Bernie2]

I can understand some of the concerns.

But how does a house wife know an apples bad and so not to cook it, she is not an apple grower?

We use gas all the time in our everyday. How do people know the gas cookers burning correctly or the gas fire if they don't know anything about a flame picture?

Agreed one has to have trust. But one should also have a certain amount of knowledge about the safety of something people use every day.

Its not the gas fitter who uses the customers cooker or boiler its the customer.

People do want to know if work is getting done right. Mister Ford probably knows how to make cars but he does not make them.

When HSE first started all this registration, it was said it was for public safety. They also said, it did not apply so much to electrical work, as people already knew electricity was not safe.

Anyway, I think most gas accidents are from carbon monoxide poisoning not escaping gas, which is more about flueing and ventilation than gas tightness.

And anyway what is wrong in people knowing the correct procedure of a gas tightness test?

Why do people assume loads of cowboys will all of a sudden start doing gas drop tests?

Mind you if they did we may pick up on loads of gas leak work!!!

After all you check your car tyre pressures don't you?

No gas fitting knowledge is not a closed society, you can if you wanted to be a cowboy, buy a freely available book and then go and do it or forget the book and go and do it how you thought it was done.

Keeping secrets will not stop cowboys, the public knowing more about the proper way to do things might.

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

if the public learn this knowledge will they not want more?

I do check my car tyre pressure, i also pump them up myself and do not know anyone who takes their car to a mechanic to reinflate their tyres. I was never shown how to pump them up or what they look like when they are under or over inflated its just things you pick up along this journey of life.

People go by there gut feelings and recommendations, if something doesn't seem right then it might not be so often a second opinoin is required and asked for and maybe a GS engineer round.

There are endless tests that may be beneficial to joe public to understand but at the end of the day they dont really need to know as it is the professionals who we trust and who we go back to. if I have 4 new wheels fitted to my car i assume the bolts are torqued correctly, i do not watch them do this or how they have the torque spanner calibrated i just accept that they know what they are doing and it will be ok. I dribve home and all four wheels fall of its down to my insurance company to make them pay

 

[Bernie2]

The thing is you know the new tyres are on as are the wheels, because you can see them and know what they look like. Not only that, you know how the car should handle and to stop if somethings wrong. Suppose you never?

We would have crashed cars all over the place.

The idea that professionals are always correct, is a bit misleading, ask any gas fitter if they have ever been back to a job or not done by professionals?

Professional just means you get paid for it, it does not indicate a skill level.

I have worked as a Plumber for over 35 years but do not regard myself as perfect, when and if I where to, I would leave the game, for I could be dangerous in thinking I had nothing else to learn and was always right.

No I have made mistakes and try to be open about them. I have no trouble with either showing or telling people what I am doing and let the quality of that work good or bad speak for itself.

I have worked on contracts where a proper gas service including burner wash out as usually taken about an hour. Some guys seem to have done roughly the same service in less than 10 minutes. Now I am not saying their services where below safety standards.
But where they as thorough? And did the customer get value for money?

Surely if the customer knows a bit more they can decide for themselves. Lets be honest at present a customer has no idea if they are getting a dangerous cowboy job done or not and out of that ignorance may place themselves in danger. That is not fair.

Most people know a bit about painting and decorating and would moan if a decorator hung the wall paper upside down or forgot to paste it properly and it all peeled off. They know its wrong because they know what wall paper is supposed to do. If they know what is involved in a good gas service they will then probably know if it is right or wrong as well?

The thing is, if you get known for doing a good job you will probably get more work. So people having more knowledge can have some spin offs for trade.

The British Standards Institute writes perhaps thousands and thousands of standards for people to get to know about the latest safety aspects of all kinds of things.
They are also usually freely available to the general public to inspect in any library.

So if the information is available why should a gas fitter want to keep it from them?

Don't make sense to me.

If you want to keep secrets from the public perhaps membership of the masons should be included in GaSafe registration