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Discuss Tankless Toilet from Attic Tank in the Plumbing Forum area at UKPlumbersForums.co.uk.

  1. Simeon

    Simeon New Member

    Hi

    Has anyone tried running a toilet without a cistern from an attic tank in a normal house?

    I'm thinking of installing a toilet with a hidden cistern in my house, and concealing it is a bit of a problem. There's a nice big tank in the attic a few meters above, so I'm wondering if it'd be possible to do away with a separate toilet cistern altogether.

    According to wikipedia (link below) a 1' pipe and 2.1 bar of pressure, together with a "flushometer" valve is suitable. I've already installed a Walrus pump coming from the attic tank for the shower, so am wondering if I can use this for the toilet too.

    Flush toilet - Wikipedia

    Any thoughts? Apologies if this is a ridiculous question - I'm a DIYer, not a plumber!

    Simeon
     
  2. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Are you in the uk Simeon?
     
  3. rpm

    rpm Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    You can buy them in the UK.
     
  4. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    yes normally mains fed but the flushometer is a usa toilet system and requires a special toilet so unsure
     
  5. Simeon

    Simeon New Member

    I'm in Ireland - we can usually get similar stuff to the UK here (or I can always drive up to NI if I need to).

    Is there a name for these sorts of toilets? I tried googling a few things but maybe I wasn't using the correct name for them?
     
  6. rpm

    rpm Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    Uh, ok, can`t see why myself looks like a high level cistern pan.
     
  7. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

  8. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    WC Flushing Systems / WC Flushing Control / Cistermiser Easyflush Direct flushing valve for infrared WC flushing from mains supply.

    Needs to be fed from its own tank eg not connected/ teed into your tank for hot water feed etc
     
  9. rpm

    rpm Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    However there are pictures showing a pan with rear entry flush pipe as well.
     
  10. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Don't know then mate can
     
  11. Simeon

    Simeon New Member

    Thanks - it looks like my pump isn't up to the specs it needs unfortunately. Mine can supply about 40lpm at 2 bar, but it needs 90lpm, so it'd be a case of buying a new pump specially for it. I'll see what it all looks like price wise though.

    I'm a surprised it needs so much pressure - the pressure coming from a normal toilet cistern to the pan I'd have thought would be much lower, but then the pan is probably designed differently.
     
  12. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    I would say your pump would be fine (you would need to check with the manufacturer tho) a stand toilet cistern can supply 7 litres ish (if it's set up for eco it's a lot less around 4 litres)

    So a flush normally takes 10 seconds so that's 42 lpm
     
  13. rpm

    rpm Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    Put the cistern in the loft aka high level cistern, extend the flush pipe to suit and have the pull flush chain coming through the ceiling :rolleyes:
    Just make sure the seat & lid are down before flushing! ;)

    (Just joking).
     
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  14. ShaunCorbs

    ShaunCorbs S. Mod Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    You may laugh but seen that using an f and e tank
     
  15. Simeon

    Simeon New Member

    They do say they need 90lpm on the website:

    "To achieve an effective and efficient flush the water system needs to deliver at least 90 lpm (litres per minute). Typically this would require that the dynamic water pressure, measured before the valve, is at least 2bar. If 90 lpm cannot be achieved, the flush will be less effective and a longer flush duration or multiple flushes may be required"

    But as you say, it seems an awful lot of pressure, and if a longer flush is needed it isn't the end of the world. I guess the best thing to do is a bit of an experiment - I've an ensuite that we're getting rid of, so I'll try rigging it up with just a ball valve and see what happens, then if it works buy a Cistermiser for the real thing.
     
  16. Simeon

    Simeon New Member

    Not sure the missus would be too happy with that - I'd probably end up hanging from the chain! :)
     
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  17. rpm

    rpm Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    Me too and other weird and wonderful ideas. Just wouldn`t like to my name to anything like it.
     
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  18. rpm

    rpm Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    If and I mean if as I don`t intend to insult the good lady, if her arse is large enough to form a water tight seal on the seat then tell her you have invented the automatic arse cleaning 2-1 system which will make you a millionaire! :cool:
     
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  19. Simeon

    Simeon New Member

    If I tell her that I'll end up hanging by something other than my neck..!
     
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  20. Simeon

    Simeon New Member

    Thanks for all the quick replies everyone, much appreciated. I'll give the experiment a try and let you all know how I get on.

    All the best
    Simeon
     
  21. townfanjon

    townfanjon Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Surely theres room for a concealed cistern ( eg grohe adajo ) straight above the pan flush pipe .
    I have a back to wall pan against a tiled dry wall where the flush pipe is in the wall and directly connected on to the cistern in the loft a pneumatic push button operates the flush , it works a treat.
     
  22. Simeon

    Simeon New Member

    I probably could put in a concealed cistern if I have to, but it'd mean I have to bring the wall out a bit in that place, so it'd look better if I could get it to flush directly from the loft cistern.

    It sounds like that's what you've done here - if so do you have details of the valve / push button that you used? Or did you put a cistern in the wall too?
     
  23. rpm

    rpm Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. Simeon

    Simeon New Member

    Ah, I get it now - thanks. Yes, I think that'd do the job with the cistern in the loft, and it would give better access to the cistern for servicing than burying it in the wall.
     
  25. townfanjon

    townfanjon Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Yep RPM s dead right , just got a longer piece of hose but routed it down through some overflow pipe in the wall so if it split I could replace it very easily , sorry no pics , we are on holiday now , but it looks great , just a pneumatic pushbutton on to the tiles . The cistern was mounted on to some 20 mm ply both base and back screwed together at 90 degrees , with insulation around the cistern , when it flushes .. it flushes !!! , the water comes with a roar lol
     
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  26. rpm

    rpm Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    Forgot you were on holiday TFJ and an educated guess on my part. :)
     
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  27. townfanjon

    townfanjon Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    Sat in a hotel in Folkestone , getting tunnel in the morning , driving to Spain stop off somewhere in France tomorrow night , 5 nights in Spain , then across to meet up with our old friend and neighbours in Italy for 5 days , back up through France with a stopover , and tunnel back to blighty , just a few miles , never done anything like it , but here goes lol
     
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  28. rpm

    rpm Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    Hope you find an English TV for the football then. ;)
     
  29. townfanjon

    townfanjon Trusted Plumber GSR Top Contributor!!

    You know me so well , yep will be looking for a bar tomorrow night for the Town v West Ham match
     
  30. rpm

    rpm Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    Good idea mate, somewhere to drown your sorrows and all that. :D
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  31. Simeon

    Simeon New Member

    Hi everyone

    I've phoned a few places and done some experiments and it seems like there are three options for me.

    1. Have no toilet cistern and use a direct flush from my pump. I tried this on an existing toilet and as SeanCorbs thought, it worked pretty well, despite my pump not being able to provide 90lpm, and also my experiment using an existing 1/2'' pipe in places, which would have throttled the flow even more. If I'd used 1'' pipe for the experiment I'd say it would have been perfect. However, it really killed the rate of the flow at the shower when the toilet was flushed, and buying a second pump would be too expensive, so I've ruled out this option.

    2. Have no toilet cistern and use a gravity fed feed from the attic tank. I did the calcs on the flow for this and I think it would work fine with 1'' pipe, the only problem is that it's difficult to find a suitable flush valve that works at low pressure. There is one out there, but it's electronic: http://www.wallgate.com/uploads/pro...valve for gravity non potable water Rev 3.pdf and costs around 600 quid (it's more for institutional use) so not a runner. There are mechanical ones that work with 0.4bar, but I won't get that from my attic tank unfortunately.

    3. Use a conventional hidden toilet cistern, but put it in the attic, as townfanjohn did (and rpm explained to me). Then I'll use an extended pneumatic hose to connect it to the flush button in the bathroom. This one seems to make the most sense, it'll save me space and allow access to the cistern in the loft, so is what I'm going to go with.

    Thanks again for all your help everyone - really appreciate it.

    All the best
    Simeon
     
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  32. rpm

    rpm Trusted Plumber Top Contributor!!

    KIS

    Keep It Simple, less to go wrong then. ;)
     
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  33. dan_the_plumber

    dan_the_plumber GSR

    Yes. I'd say you can do that. Your toilet pan may not be able to contain that amount of pressure but might be worth a go.
    Maybe you could install a flow limiter just before the toilet pan?
    Only problem as far as water regs is back flow protection. Since we're dealing with soil (level 5) and stored cold water (level 2) you might need a DMV backflow prevention valve.
    Presumably this valve would be built into
    A flush o matic? In fact a flush o matic might well incorporate a flow limiter as well :)
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  34. dan_the_plumber

    dan_the_plumber GSR

    Yes. I'd say you can do that. Your toilet pan may not be able to contain that amount of pressure but might be worth a go.
    Maybe you could install a flow limiter just before the toilet pan?
    Only problem as far as water regs is back flow protection. Since we're dealing with soil (level 5) and stored cold water (level 2) you might need a DMV backflow prevention valve.
    Presumably this valve would be built into
    A flush o matic? In fact a flush o matic might well incorporate a flow limiter as well :)
     
  35. bright spark

    bright spark Plumber GSR

    Those valves years ago where called victory flush valves as far as I remember.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
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