Water leak outside property

[Bogart]

Not exactly a plumbing problem but here goes. I have known for a couple of years there was a water leak somewhere between the water meter, on our property, and the property itself. The water company fitted a new (smart) meter about 4 weeks ago. Now they have contacted us saying we have a leak as we are using water 24/7. They say we should fix it giving a deadline or they will fix it. Not sure how that works as they would need access to the grounds. Anyway I digress. The leak is most definitely on the external pipework because even with the stopcock closed the meter still goes around, well the old one did not bothered to look at the new one yet. So what all this waffle is about is there a way to find out where the leak is occurring. I know at some point there is a 'T' joint off to an outbuilding. I am aussuming that the leak is at a fitting and not on the pipe itself. So we have exiting the meter or the 'T' joint. I have not got a clue as to how to ascertain where the 'T' joint is. Also unsure as to how reputable somebody might be who says they can fix it. The distance from the meter to the stopcock is some 40m which I do not fancy digging up.
Any suggestions gratefully received.
Thanks

 

[Basher]

There are techniques such as thermal imaging, acoustic measurement, electrical sensing and tiny cameras that can be fed inside the pipe, and sometimes the use of dye. I'm not sure how effective thermal imaging might be at this time of year! You could ask a company who specialise in this stuff to find the source of the leak on a 'no find - no fee' basis. I think you just have to grit your teeth, find a professional outfit, and pay the money!

I don't know how reliable the summary figures below are. No harm in seeking a quote?
Mabe someone on here has a suggestion of a reliable company to ask?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Might be worth shutting off the stop tap internally and take a meter reading and leave it over night shut and take another reading in the morning eg next day

 

[Bogart]

Might be worth shutting off the stop tap internally and take a meter reading and leave it over night shut and take another reading in the morning eg next day

Can I respectfully ask why as I know the leak is somewhere between meter and property?

 

[snowhead]

Search for Tracer Gas water leak detection, seems to be accurate.

Also have you checked your home insurance, you may be covered.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Can I respectfully ask why as I know the leak is somewhere between meter and property?

If your 1000% sure then only option is either a tracer gas to re lay the whole line if the tracer gas can’t find it as you will be billed either for wastage of water or to re do the length from there contractor

 

[Bogart]

I am a bit between the devil and the proverbial deep blue sea. I need to have a look at my insurance policy but knowing my luck will not be included. Think I will start by digging up at the meter seeing if the outlet connection is ok. Next will be the end of the 'T'
section outside the outbuilding it feeds, as it enters here on 15mm copper so somewher is a change from mpde to copper. If I get no joy will bite the bullet and get some 'expert' in.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I am a bit between the devil and the proverbial deep blue sea. I need to have a look at my insurance policy but knowing my luck will not be included. Think I will start by digging up at the meter seeing if the outlet connection is ok. Next will be the end of the 'T'
section outside the outbuilding it feeds, as it enters here on 15mm copper so somewher is a change from mpde to copper. If I get no joy will bite the bullet and get some 'expert' in.

Might be worth to start pressure testing in sections least you know which bit it would be on etc

 

[Bogart]

Might be worth to start pressure testing in sections least you know which bit it would be on etc

I could test in sections if I knew where the pipework ran.

 

[Ben-gee]

What is the surface of the route from meter to stopcock?
By which I mean; tarmac, slabs, grass concrete etc etc.

 

[Bogart]

What is the surface of the route from meter to stopcock?
By which I mean; tarmac, slabs, grass concrete etc etc.

Approximately 35m soil and gravel top remaing 7/8m is patio slabs. I did have a though that if I could expose the pipework in a few places, easier said than done mind, is it possible to hire a freezing machine suitable for mpde in that way I could isolate sections as suggested previously?

 

[Ben-gee]

So no tell tale “lush grass “ areas!
How far away is outbuilding?
Is pipe mdpe or old galvanised?

 

[Bogart]

So no tell tale “lush grass “ areas!
How far away is outbuilding?
Is pipe mdpe or old galvanised?

Mdpe from meter to house but somewhere it changes to 15mm copper before entering outbuilding. No signs of moisture anytime in summer so no clues there. Have got a guy to come round next week and do a bit of digging so we will see,

 

[snowhead]

I did have a though that if I could expose the pipework in a few places, easier said than done mind, is it possible to hire a freezing machine suitable for mpde in that way I could isolate sections as suggested previously

You don't need to freeze MDPE, use a squeeze off tool

You'll probably find it cheaper if you search, or make one yourself

Water Pipe Squeeze Off Tool 0-32mm MDPE Pipe | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Water Pipe Squeeze Off Tool 0-32mm MDPE Pipe at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Bogart]

Interesting. Says will not damage the pipework how does that work as it squashes it flat?

 

[gmartine]

The squeeze off tool has round jaws and the pipe has some memory and will recover from being squashed.

Leak could be anywhere from the junction onwards, how deep is it buried ?

 

[Bogart]

The squeeze off tool has round jaws and the pipe has some memory and will recover from being squashed.

Leak could be anywhere from the junction onwards, how deep is it buried ?

Good question. Was meant to have a guy around today to dig some holes. He has Covid and his wife was made redundant yesterday hence reason for his non appearance. I will dig a few myself and see where that leads me. I think in this freezing weather I would be tempted to warm the pipe up a bit before I started squeezing it. £26 off *bay so worth a punt at that.
And while I am it I looked at slip couplings the price does seem to vary enormously for the same thing.

MDPE Water Pipe Repair Slip Coupling 7610 - Water Pipe Fittings | Drainage Central - https://www.drainagecentral.co.uk/MDPE-Water-Pipe-Repair-Slip-Coupling-7610 £19

Plasson Universal Slip Repair Coupling 31-35 X 31-35mm 176100031035 - https://www.cityplumbing.co.uk/p/plasson-universal-slip-repair-coupling-31-35-x-31-35mm-176100031035/p/898884 £46

Am Imissing something obvious?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

First one is a picture of a plasson fitting the bottom one is a universal fitting

 

[Bogart]

First one is a picture of a plasson fitting the bottom one is a universal fitting

Both made by Plasson apart from colour is there any other difference?

 

[Basher]

Both made by Plasson apart from colour is there any other difference?

Yes as Shaun says, the first fitting you have to buy in the specific size you need, the second is a different design of seal that fits a range of sizes 31 to 35mm. The first doesn't have flexibity for slightly different size pipes. I believe it's a more complicated product hence a higher price.

 

[Ben-gee]

The first one is a size specific slip coupling only for mdpe pipe.
The more expensive one is designed to deal with different pipes eg galvanised or whatever you might come across with that diameter.

In your case you only need the mdpe plasson coupler.

 

[Bogart]

Right had not noticed the szing of the fittings. Thanks.

 

[Bogart]

Just received the squeeze off tool. Not sure why I thought it would be much bigger than it is, quite dinky. All I need to do now
is get bup the courage to go outside and dig a few holes in this damned cold weather. Tomorrow sounds a good idea.

 

[Bogart]

Right an update. Dug out a few holes and found a T piece outside where the water enters the property. I knew there had to be a T somewhere as supply also feeds an outbuilding. Now the pipe is black 3/4inch MDPE and the T piece is an equal brass
compression fitting. As far as I can see 3/4in brass compression are classed as Irish pipe fittings, must be something to do with the Guiness.
So my intention is to remove the T piece and use a stop end at the incoming supply end of the T. That will let me determine whether the leak is between the T and the meter or not. I thought this might be less harmful to the pipe than using the squeeze tool I have just bought. Any thoughts?

 

[Bogart]

So bit the bullet and used the squeeze off tool. Was hesitant as to if it would damage the pipe, I need not have worried. Warmed the pipe up a bit with a heat gun and it shut the water flow off a treat. Took it off and put back on at 90deg to previous position to get rig of the slight kink in the pipe. Is now fully round. Least it has shown me which leg the leak is on. Luckily the one going across a lawn, about 10m, and not from the meter to the house about 35 m. So only have to mess around doing holes on 10m worth.

 

[Ben-gee]

Sounds like a good result.

Just for your information- the black mdpe you have found is almost certainly alkathene and not mdpe.
Bd warned that this pipe is more inclined to become brittle with age, I would not use d squeeze off tool on it. Also if at all practical I would replace it with blue mdpe whilst you are mucking around. Note it is often easier to run a new supply by a different route and simply disconnect the old one and leave it in situ - but this will depend on the circumstances of your actual installation.

 

[Bogart]

MDPE HDPE whats in a name. Too many other things to be getting on with so no way will I replace the black with blue would be over 40m needing replacing.
The black seemed to compress yesterday very nicely and resumed its circular shape. All I want is to find the leak sort it and fill in all the holes.

 

[Ben-gee]

Diesel Petrol what’s in a name.

Try putting the wrong one in your car and you’ll find out.

 

[Bogart]

Finally traced leak with aid of a CAT4 cable tracer and genny. Problem was with fastening ring on a Philmac universal transition joiner. The ring had split for around 50% of the circumference.
Attached is a pic of current state. Original feed from meter now terminated with a stop end on a JG 3/4 in LDPE to 25mm adaptor.
I intend doing away with the boilerhouse feed and just running a supply to the garage for an outside tap. Now a slight problem is the garage pipe is
20mm MDPE and the spigot on the JG fitting is 25mm. Plus I now am about half a meter short of pipe. Now I know I can buy some 20mm pipe, a 25mm to 20mm adapter and a 20mm elbow. I just wondered am I missing anything obvious to do the job except from how I am stating here?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

No pictures mate ?

 

[Bogart]

Buggar I am always doing that.

 

[Bogart]

Just another matter. The pipe coming from the garage is shall we say marked/scored so I doubt a normal 20mm MDPE would seal well enough. What I am therefore thinking of is a 20mm brass
compression fitting, do they exist?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Just another matter. The pipe coming from the garage is shall we say marked/scored so I doubt a normal 20mm MDPE would seal well enough. What I am therefore thinking of is a 20mm brass
compression fitting, do they exist?

They do peglar make them but I would cut back to a non damaged part

I’ve seen scores / scratches weaken the pipe causing a burst etc

 

[Bogart]

Ha easier said than done cutting back to undamaged pipe. Shortly after picture it disappears under a flower bed with trees in there then under a paved area before arriving at the garage. The scores scrtaches are not bad just that a slight score I have found can make an O ring seal not work. I have just this minute found that Conex do a 20mm brass coupler so might try that.