Fernox Tf1 total filter reversed flow

[DaveB0360]

Obviously we cant see everything from the photos but nothing immediately concerns me with those photos, obviously I can't see how the tiles are fixed but I can't see the gap you mention. The filter looks Ok but again I can't see which way the direction arrow is pointing, if it's pointing up then all is good. So the only concerning parts is the benchmark not filled it, the flue not been clipped and the possibility he hasn't commissioned the boiler, and the condensate looks like it might be running slighlty up hill. If you are generally concerned then you can either call gas safe or another local engineer to come and check it over.

OK, like you say, you can't see all from the photos. The arrow on the tf1 is indeed pointing upwards but the return pipe connected to the upper port is flowing downwards from a downwards return pipe from behind the boiler. The lower port bends upwards to the return tail of boiler.
The flue is way off vertical for starters, is not held to any structure in the roof by any clamp or brackets, it's only held by its own downwards weight and a loose fitting collar of the lead slate. The roof slates are layered loosely behind the upwards section of the flue.
The condensate pipework is forced behind the filter pipework. There's an adey calmag cold supply filter tightly fitted between other pipes running downwards and is dripping but no space to get wrench on it to tighten up. Out of shot are also 2 crossovers that are not freely crossing, they are forced against the pipes they're crossing over. The mains supply cable has been scarred with heat from the torch, as has a few areas of the boiler under tray.
I could go on..... Yes, I'm fussy but there are several areas that are clearly and unnecessarily bodged.
Having watched the guy work, I don't believe he has the skills or finesse to put this right to a satisfactory standard so I can't see any sense in confronting him with a view to putting it right.
I'm screwed I reckon..

 

[Aire]

Sorry I see what you mean about the filter now, so the return comes down through the filter and then back up again to the boiler, so yes that is wrong. The flue is very dangerous too. Your right not to trust the engineer to put it right, if he's capable of tidy and safe work he would have done it properly in the first place. Your only option is to get another engineer to put it right, it's going to cost you but its needs doing.

 

[DaveB0360]

Sorry I see what you mean about the filter now, so the return comes down through the filter and then back up again to the boiler, so yes that is wrong. The flue is very dangerous too. Your right not to trust the engineer to put it right, if he's capable of tidy and safe work he would have done it properly in the first place. Your only option is to get another engineer to put it right, it's going to cost you but its needs doing.

Annoys me primarily because we didn't hammer down his price or haggle or nit pick. I supplied all pipe, fittings, filter etc and even paid him £50 ott as a Christmas tip. When he came to view the job, he didn't put ladders up properly, slipped off them, destroyed the bathroom door, scratched and part damage our new bathroom rad and twisted the pipework.... That should have been my clue..... But we were cold and desperate and our original fitter couldn't get to us as originally arranged.... Kicking myself now.... You live & learn I guess. But for the gas safe regs, I'd have done it right myself. He didn't even seem to know what the anti thermosiphon leg was for in the supply pipe.... But he did it more or less the way I specified..... And it works!!

 

[Aire]

Pfft, he didn't even know what an anti thermosiphon leg was for, what an idiot 🙄

 

[DaveB0360]

Pfft, he didn't even know what an anti thermosiphon leg was for, what an idiot 🙄

Well, he looked mystified when I mentioned it as a feature of intergas piping, instead of a check valve, I suggested a 600mm drop loop instead.

I'm gonna try see when the first engineer is available next, he was referred by family electrician that I trust.
Just wish the law wasn't such an bum and I could do it all myself like I used to.
Thanks all.

 

[Ric2013]

Not many RGIs would put up with working for an engineer who makes suggestions, to be honest. I do do work for an engineer and find it interesting, but we have some interesting discussions on the best way to do things that some people might find annoying.

Not necessarily your fault, but do be mindful that many in this trade are not academic but have spent a lot of time learning the trade and can feel threatened when someone who in their mind knows nothing about it challenges their knowledge.

As others have said, there is nothing obviously wrong with the work carried out, but if you call out Gas Safe, then if the work is not to standard then you know, and if it is to standard then Gas Safe will say so. I wouldn't worry about getting people into trouble as I suspect Gas Safe inspects a proportion of its installers' installations anyway, so if he's the real thing, he will get the odd check anyway.

 

[Scott_D]

I haven't read all post but from the pictures it looks like a decent enough install.
Cant the valves be isolated and the body rotated on the TF1?

 

[Riley]

Might just be angles but is the flue pic from a window above

 

[DaveB0360]

Might just be angles but is the flue pic from a window above

Yes it is from the landing window.

 

[Riley]

I think it looked closer than it was. Ignore me

 

[DaveB0360]

I haven't read all post but from the pictures it looks like a decent enough install.
Cant the valves be isolated and the body rotated on the TF1?

I'm shocked that you and others feel this is a decent install frankly, although I appreciate it's hard to get a full impression from the photos.
Question, do others feel it's good practice to make soldered joints without deburring or cleaning the copper because I don't, and I've been soldering for nearly 50 years.
I'm shocked also that with the TF1 being so and well known in the trade & commonly used that you don't know the body must remain vertical, the boss/hub can be re-oriented but that should only be carried out by a recognised tradesman and is less than optimal. There were zero difficulties in fitting it correctly and if the engineer had actually known how to install an anti thermosiphon loop then I wouldn't have had to even mention it, let alone give instructions on how to fashion one. Just like I shouldn't have to question or inspect the work of a trained and licensed professional on fitting a TF1 filter.

 

[DaveB0360]

I think it looked closer than it was. Ignore me

No problem, when viewed from the rear yard, it's leaning noticeably sideways to the right, when viewed from the side view, it's leaning significantly towards the back yard.... Away from the window where I took the photo, he struggled to get the flashing far enough up the roof to get it vertical because of 'nails' so he cut a square section out of the back corner of it to clear the nails. A bodge.

 

[Aire]

I'm going to be honest here, I've googled anti thermosiphon loop and still non the wiser as to what it actually is 😳

I'll also be honest and it sickens me to say but I don't always debur my copper prior to soldering 😱 but I do always clean it.

And as for the pictures, as mentioned they don't really give us the whole picture as to what's wrong, we can't see any of the faults you mention so we can't comment, the only thing we can see is the filter, which can be taken off and you can flip the orientation of it, perfectly acceptable to do so, so not sure why you say it's not optimal.

 

[Riley]

I'm shocked that you and others feel this is a decent install frankly, although I appreciate it's hard to get a full impression from the photos.
Question, do others feel it's good practice to make soldered joints without deburring or cleaning the copper because I don't, and I've been soldering for nearly 50 years.
I'm shocked also that with the TF1 being so and well known in the trade & commonly used that you don't know the body must remain vertical, the boss/hub can be re-oriented but that should only be carried out by a recognised tradesman and is less than optimal. There were zero difficulties in fitting it correctly and if the engineer had actually known how to install an anti thermosiphon loop then I wouldn't have had to even mention it, let alone give instructions on how to fashion one. Just like I shouldn't have to question or inspect the work of a trained and licensed professional on fitting a TF1 filter.

Reel it in a bit mate. We are trying to help. For free I might add. Trust us, based on some shockers we see this isn’t anywhere close to the worst. That is not however saying that this is acceptable. Obviously not a confident solderer as there’s no need to use Yorkshire’s where he has. The big thing here is the lack of commissioning documentation which I’d be reporting him for. And also I think my colleague was alluding to the TF1 having it’s attaching body rotated not the cylinder itself so please don’t take us for simpletans. Ps quoting thermosiphons and the like are all very well but are rarely necessary. It’s starting to sound more and more like you have looked over this blokes shoulder throughout to be honest if you did that to me I’d be rushing to get out the door. Furthermore, because you can solder does not make you able to pipesize, or system design, you may be able to but it’s inconsequential you’ve employed this guy to do a job. My advice. Stop worrying, get gas safe in for a free assessment, get put right whatever they pick up and move on. Life is too short. This started off friendly let’s keep it that way eh?

 

[DaveB0360]

I'm going to be honest here, I've googled anti thermosiphon loop and still non the wiser as to what it actually is 😳

I'll also be honest and it sickens me to say but I don't always debur my copper prior to soldering 😱 but I do always clean it.

And as for the pictures, as mentioned they don't really give us the whole picture as to what's wrong, we can't see any of the faults you mention so we can't comment, the only thing we can see is the filter, which can be taken off and you can flip the orientation of it, perfectly acceptable to do so, so not sure why you say it's not optimal.

Hi Craig, Anti thermosiphon loop is an old school technique to prevent gravitational flow of heated water from rising.
In the case of Intergas boilers, they have a dual back to back hex for heating and hot water and no divertor valve (I think ferolli have similar in their Modena) during hw call, the pump is not powered but water in the heating circuit can thermosiphon through to rads if not checked. Check valves can be used to prevent this in upwards flowing pipework but sending flow pipe downwards for a short distance then looping back upwards also prevents the thermosiphon effect since hot water will not happily follow a downward path. It works and is failure free, no moving parts, the only thing to remember is to include a drain off. It's also used in solar collectors.

 

[Aire]

Hi Craig, Anti thermosiphon loop is an old school technique to prevent gravitational flow of heated water from rising.
In the case of Intergas boilers, they have a dual back to back hex for heating and hot water and no divertor valve (I think ferolli have similar in their Modena) during hw call, the pump is not powered but water in the heating circuit can thermosiphon through to rads if not checked. Check valves can be used to prevent this in upwards flowing pipework but sending flow pipe downwards for a short distance then looping back upwards also prevents the thermosiphon effect since hot water will not happily follow a downward path. It works and is failure free, no moving parts, the only thing to remember is to include a drain off. It's also used in solar collectors.

Thanks for the info, always good to learn something new

 

[DaveB0360]

Reel it in a bit mate. We are trying to help. For free I might add. Trust us, based on some shockers we see this isn’t anywhere close to the worst. That is not however saying that this is acceptable. Obviously not a confident solderer as there’s no need to use Yorkshire’s where he has. The big thing here is the lack of commissioning documentation which I’d be reporting him for. And also I think my colleague was alluding to the TF1 having it’s attaching body rotated not the cylinder itself so please don’t take us for simpletans. Ps quoting thermosiphons and the like are all very well but are rarely necessary. It’s starting to sound more and more like you have looked over this blokes shoulder throughout to be honest if you did that to me I’d be rushing to get out the door. Furthermore, because you can solder does not make you able to pipesize, or system design, you may be able to but it’s inconsequential you’ve employed this guy to do a job. My advice. Stop worrying, get gas safe in for a free assessment, get put right whatever they pick up and move on. Life is too short. This started off friendly let’s keep it that way eh?

Riley, I appreciate the help and not intentionally being awkward or disrespectful. I certainly didn't stand over his shoulder but I did observe of course, I thought his methods might have been worth learning..... I like to learn, always have even at nearly 60, still like to learn. Perhaps if I had checked him along the way, I might not have ended up with such a dogs breakfast and perhaps if he'd taken offense and walked off the job, I'd have been better off. I had higher expectations but perhaps my expectations are too high. I don't know but if I've offended then I apologise regardless. I'm most certainly going to take yours and others advice.
And as I write this, I seem to smell a little gas.... Better go check.... Goodnight and many thanks.

 

[DaveB0360]

Hi Craig, Anti thermosiphon loop is an old school technique to prevent gravitational flow of heated water from rising.
In the case of Intergas boilers, they have a dual back to back hex for heating and hot water and no divertor valve (I think ferolli have similar in their Modena) during hw call, the pump is not powered but water in the heating circuit can thermosiphon through to rads if not checked. Check valves can be used to prevent this in upwards flowing pipework but sending flow pipe downwards for a short distance then looping back upwards also prevents the thermosiphon effect since hot water will not happily follow a downward path. It works and is failure free, no moving parts, the only thing to remember is to include a drain off. It's also used in solar collectors.

It's actually not called gravitational flow but I forget the correct terminology.... Lol

 

[Aire]

It's actually not called gravitational flow but I forget the correct terminology.. Lol

I believe it's gravitational convection

 

[DaveB0360]

I believe it's gravitational convection

Yeah.... Or even just convection..... Lol.... Been out of school too long....