Does this work seem reasonable?

[Nsansa]

Hi. I've recently had some work done on a Ravensheat combi boiler (RSF82E) by a registered CORGI engineer and think the bill is over the top. I'd be grateful for your professional comments.

The guy was called out because the boiler was not firing up when the HW tap (or CH) was turned on. After 2 hours he diagnosed a fauly ingnition PCB. After ordering a replacement (the exisiting one was only 6 months old) he returned for almost 2 hours to fit it, and as the boiler was still not working, he then diagnosed a faulty diverter valve. Having ordered that part he came back for 5 and a half hours to fit it and drain and refill the CH system. Boiler still not working, so I call him back again, and this time the diagnosis (1 hour) was a faulty low water shut off valve, which later look 2 and a half hours to fit. At last the boiler is working, but I now have a £922 bill: £582 for 13 hours of labour (hourly rate of £45 - we live in Buckinghamshire) plus £340 (incl VAT) for parts: £150 for PCB, £137 for diverter valve, £37 for shut off and £16 for radiator additive.

Checking internet prices, the parts seem about right, but my query is: should it really take 3 attempts to find and solve the problem, or is it probable that actually there were 3 separate faults that could not have been reasonably picked up in one visit.

The boiler was last serviced and certified by my regular engineer 6 months ago (he was away on holiday, hence the call to the new guy).

 

[diamondgas]

Nsansa ........ sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!!! Is this a large company or one man band? Thats a hefty bill! It also sounds like the last part was the fault and the other two possibly okay. It happens when folk guess! Not fare that you should have to pay for his incorrect diagnosis though, if that is the case! Maybe worth taking up with him/them?

We don't always get it right first time, bye-the-way!

 

[markfxy]

Hard to say but could have been more than 1 fault or he could have been a parts changer £45 pounds is about right for an hourly rate

 

[quality]

Anyone can replace parts until a boiler is repaired hence he should off diagnosed the fault correctly in the first place and not 3rd time luckyBy the way it's not corgi anymore it's gas safe

 

[bill577]

I would agree to pay for 2 hours and the low pressure valve, the bill shouldent have come to more than £150, you should not have to pay for his guesses.

 

[secret squirrel]

Have you discussed this with the company or individual?

This would be my first port of call. Did you discuss the bill before paying?

Trouble is, this sounds very expensive BUT we (as good as our intentions are) were not there. There may have been more than one fault etc.

Were you aware of his/her/their charges before they started?
Was this classed as an emergency call out charge?

So, many variables.....

 

[Puddle]

13 hrs labour... that is like him turning up at 9am in the morning,working all the way through,non stop until 10pm at night!!...on one boiler,you could have taken it apart and put it back together god knows how many times !

If you do pay him,let me know and I will stand in for your usual plumber next time he goes on holiday,coz he obviously has a great customer base

Remember just because a plumber is gas safe registered does not mean and has nothing to do with his ability to repair certain boilers or issue sensible invoices

imho

 

[billychuff]

I don't understand some people. If your really that stuck... ring technical support

 

[bill577]

If your registered and want to have a go at boiler repairs you cant expect the customer to pay for your misdiagnosis, he should have put the old ignition pcb and divertor valve back in and put it down to experience, he must be a complete muppet if he thinks he wont get a bad reputation very quickly over charging for his incompetance.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

you nearly paid enough to change it for a proper boiler,this guy has no idea what he is doing

 

[quality]

you nearly paid enough to change it for a proper boiler,this guy has no idea what he is doing

Yeh Ravenheat could bought 3 for that much

 

[Dannypipe]

Sounds like he needs more training. Obviously he was guessing what was wrong. Unluckilly for you he started with a very expensive part (the PCB) which is often non returnable as a broken one can look immaculate, so in effect someone could change one and return the broken one to their supplier.

He should have checked the boiler out with a multi meter, and diagnosed the problem. As said, sometimes we get it wrong, and sometimes there are more than one fault.

All that aside, in my opinion I think you paid a HELL of a lot of money.

 

[gaspastemania]

Blimey be cheaper for labour on boiler change. I am no means a good fault finder but i will nose to see if i can find the basics to try help but if i'm stuck i will pass job on and give the cust a rough estimate of labour charge so they dont get ripped off.

 

[cdodds2004]

imo he sounds like a parts jockey! if you dont no what problem is change the pcb LOL, could of tested with a multimeter to see if correct signals were being sent to prove board is ok! but on the other hand it isnt un heard of that a boiler has more than one fault, i have had a it quite often, as a boiler works in a sequence and u can only fix the problem in the sequence then try again normally resulting in a repaired boiler but sometimes leads to a 2nd fault! thats a big bill for a ravenheat i must say my profesional advice would of been not to waste money repairing the boiler as they are trouble!!

 

[Nsansa]

Thanks all of you for your very helpful replies - much appreciated.

I have not yet paid the bill, but after your comments I'm planning to offer to pay the guy (self employed, not a large company by the way) for all the parts (except for the PCB) plus labour at £45 per hour for 6 hours work (made up of 2 hours diagnosis, 2 hours to fit the diverter valve and 2 hours to fit the shut off valve). This adds up to £460 - just half of his bill.

Do you guys think that is fair and reasonable???

 

[secret squirrel]

Thanks all of you for your very helpful replies - much appreciated.

I have not yet paid the bill, but after your comments I'm planning to offer to pay the guy (self employed, not a large company by the way) for all the parts (except for the PCB) plus labour at £45 per hour for 6 hours work (made up of 2 hours diagnosis, 2 hours to fit the diverter valve and 2 hours to fit the shut off valve). This adds up to £460 - just half of his bill.

Do you guys think that is fair and reasonable???

Can only go bad!
But I agree to a point,
What if the PCB was knackered though? You've then knocked him quite a bit.
What if he has come across other problems?

For me, I'd have made the charges clear and given the customer the option to continue or pay me what I am owed and bow out gracefully.

I worked on a boiler with a friend a while ago and without a doubt the divertor valve was knackered as was the integral filling loop, we also had to replace the heat exchanger and the PRV as well. We couldn't have known all the faults and problems the boiler had. I'm not going into it all here because this is not the reason for your post. But things happen..... At the end of the job the customer had a perfectly working boiler though, the best it had been in an age...

I do think his overall cost is high etc. I don't like the thought of knocking someone, it leaves a bad taste, the flip side though, you shouldn't feel mugged off.

Try and speak to him and come to an understanding.

As I said before, I have a great deal of respect for all the professionals on this forum who give good sound advice BUT if your not standing in front of the problem or haven't seen the issues...............

 

[emerald]

this is crazy, 13 hrs??? this guys obviously doesn't know what he is doing, i can strip most boilers and replace any part within an hour. you get the odd one that might take a bit longer but not very often. i so far have a 100% record when it comes ordering the right part 1st time, (in 3 years of being self employed), and i intend on keeping it. i know there will be a time that ill get it wrong and when i do i will probably feel that it is my fault that its still not working and offer to pay for the part. i would be on to trading standards if i was you, its people like that who give the rest of us bad names.

as a comparison, i had a new battery fitted in my van (£87), 3 months later i was having problems starting in the morning, this went on for a week or so, i took it back to the same garage and they identified that they had fitted me the wrong battery, one that was designed for a 1.4petrol rather then a 2.5 turbo diesel, they wanted to charge me full price for the correct battery (£104) with no chance of refund,
i went to trading standards and they were very helpful and drafted me a letter quoting my rights and how goods should be fit for purpose and how work done should be carried out with: REASONABLE SKILL and CARE. a week later i had a full refund 🙂

 

[fuzzy]

this is why i dont get involved with boiler repairs, i dont do enough fault finidng to be assured that i will find the correct fault, i refuse to be one of those people who keep changing parts until they find the fault. i have worked with people who do that, its ok if you have a van of parts and you swap back if it aint broke, but to keep buying and charging for them is wrong imo

 

[emerald]

i agree fuzzy, if a boiler stumps me, and after talkin to technical im still none the wiser, i will give the customer someone else's phone number and leave. that way i havnt cost them a fortune and i can sleep at night 🙂

 

[IDCHAPPY]

Seems OTT to me, some problems can be a pig to source though. Did he bother calling technical help to see iof they could assist with the problem or just bash on changing the whole boiler insides?

 

[IDCHAPPY]

this is why i dont get involved with boiler repairs, i dont do enough fault finidng to be assured that i will find the correct fault, i refuse to be one of those people who keep changing parts until they find the fault. i have worked with people who do that, its ok if you have a van of parts and you swap back if it aint broke, but to keep buying and charging for them is wrong imo

Totally agree buddy

 

[mike_s]

The guy should be steered well clear of until he revises his pricing policy in my opinion. £45 is fine but you can't charge for incorrect diagnosis and parts that wern't required. Worst case is he could charge for parts only but just the labour it took to fit the correct part.

 

[GQuigley67]

The guy should be steered well clear of until he revises his pricing policy in my opinion. £45 is fine but you can't charge for incorrect diagnosis and parts that wern't required. Worst case is he could charge for parts only but just the labour it took to fit the correct part.

True, You shouldn't pay for his mistakes

 

[RoryD]

Hi. I've recently had some work done on a Ravensheat combi boiler (RSF82E) by a registered CORGI engineer and think the bill is over the top. I'd be grateful for your professional comments.

The guy was called out because the boiler was not firing up when the HW tap (or CH) was turned on. After 2 hours he diagnosed a fauly ingnition PCB. After ordering a replacement (the exisiting one was only 6 months old) he returned for almost 2 hours to fit it, and as the boiler was still not working, he then diagnosed a faulty diverter valve. Having ordered that part he came back for 5 and a half hours to fit it and drain and refill the CH system. Boiler still not working, so I call him back again, and this time the diagnosis (1 hour) was a faulty low water shut off valve, which later look 2 and a half hours to fit. At last the boiler is working, but I now have a £922 bill: £582 for 13 hours of labour (hourly rate of £45 - we live in Buckinghamshire) plus £340 (incl VAT) for parts: £150 for PCB, £137 for diverter valve, £37 for shut off and £16 for radiator additive.

Checking internet prices, the parts seem about right, but my query is: should it really take 3 attempts to find and solve the problem, or is it probable that actually there were 3 separate faults that could not have been reasonably picked up in one visit.

The boiler was last serviced and certified by my regular engineer 6 months ago (he was away on holiday, hence the call to the new guy).

In short ...NO! The bloke is an incompetent. If I'd have spent that long on what to me seems a simple solution, my manager would correctly, ask questions. I'm incredulous how often I hear this. Following instructions from a manual would dictate that boiler installation is relatively simple. However repairs are quite a different proposition and it seems there are plenty of chancers about who charge what they will for their incompetence with total impunity

 

[WHPES]

BTW CORGI registration does not exist any longer as it has been replaced by the Gas Safe Register. If they were still quoting CORGI they are probably unlicensed.

 

[helix]

I agree with Gas Man, you'd better off with a new boiler for that sort of money and with a warranty from the manufacturer as well!

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

I can't comment on the technical side.
£45 per hour is a reasonable rate
Boilers can have 3 different faults at the same time or within days and after the event no-one has anyway of finding out where this did or didn't need those parts.
But 13 hours does sound very excessive.

Question is what should customer do.
i think the customer should pay for the materials straight awa so guy is not out of pocket and offer half a day's money £45 x 4 = £180 for labour - see what he says.

And lesson learned? If your usual heating expert isn't available then my advice is contact the boiler manufacturer who will either employ their own engineer or will have a list of people qualified/ trained on those boilers. I expect Ravenheat do this but we have no experience, we never fit them.

 

[wazzer]

Ravenheat would of sent an engineer round for a fixed price any fault and they guarantee the boiler for a year . they are not a good boiler but have good isolators on them so you dont usually have to drain the system just the boiler sounds like you have been ripped of by an idiot with a lack of experience have you checked Gas Safe website to see if he is registered all the parts should take no longer than half an hour each to fit

 

[mfgs]

Half hour to fit a diverter valve is a bit ambitious. They can be a real pain in the arse and can easily end up taking a couple hours, perhaps not the 5 1/2 hours this fella took though.

 

[gornsgorns]

This guy clearly hasn't got a clue and frankly is taking the micky abit. He should stick to instals since it's obvious he doesn't know much about fault finding. Why don't people like these just go on a few courses and try and learn things, rather than just guessing what's wrong and charging the customer a fortune for the privilege.

 

[RoryD]

rarely is there more than one fault causing you a breakdown and it's unlikely you'll ever have three. I'm sure someone will try and disprove. My point is, engineers should be able to diagnose logically, to pinpoint the fault

 

[diamondgas]

My point is, engineers should be able to diagnose logically, to pinpoint the fault

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a diagnostics kit at hand or even the mi's for that matter when they attend a repair! Taking the case off a boiler is daunting for many who venture into repairing appliances and if you aren't doing it day in day out you soon get rusty! I'd agree that there is always the logical approach to fault finding but when you can't even recognise components or take the bleedn' case off, it gets a bit frustrating! Personally i think the diagnostic repair engineer is a rare breed in comparison to the part fitter! If your a repair engineer working for yourself it's a scary business at times, especially when faced with something you've never seen before, new or old!

The engineer the op had was a part fitter, and an expensive one at that! However there are times when we get it wrong, times when you go with your best guess! Through time those times become less and less but they still happen and will continue too throughout your career!

Regards pinpointing a fault! One of the hardest one to get right first time every time is one of the most common faults we come across with combi's, "hot water not getting hot enough!" So many variables!

I will never know it all and I will make wrong decisions, I know i will. Beauty is I'll continue to learn from them! 😀

 

[bill577]

It depends on who you expect to pay for your mistakes, the mistakes I have made I paid for (still got a gas valve and a couple of pcb,s in my van from my misdiagnosis) the muppet that worked on the op,s boiler is expecting the customer to pick up the bill for his mistakes and training.

 

[armourer]

Considering we have only heard one side of the story I think there a few too many people here willing to hang a fellow engineer out to dry.

Yes the amount of time he "seems" to have taken appears excessive but who is to say the boiler did not have multiple faults or what state it was in before he arrived?

Unless we are stood in front of the same boiler I dont think anybody can fairly comment one way or the other.

 

[secret squirrel]

Considering we have only heard one side of the story I think there a few too many people here willing to hang a fellow engineer out to dry.

Yes the amount of time he "seems" to have taken appears excessive but who is to say the boiler did not have multiple faults or what state it was in before he arrived?

Unless we are stood in front of the same boiler I dont think anybody can fairly comment one way or the other.

I thought I was the only one putting another side of the argument, woo hoo! I thought I was going mad(er)