advice on non paying customer

[splinterdream]

Hi all. Need advice on the above. The story goes that i was asked to do a gas certificate at a property by a landlord, in the morning I did the certificate on 3 appliances and also topped up pressure on boiler (ideal response ff80) as pressure at zero. In the afternoon i get called back as boiler not working. After some investigation i find heat exchanger had gone and tried to contact landlord. As they were on hols in france communication was via text. I quoted a high price to fit heat exchanger and price for replacement boiler. They went for heat exchanger. After a lot of hard work, heat exchanger fitted, new pipe, and two thermistors all within price quoted, boiler wouldn't fire up. After diagnosis i couldn't reach a satifactory 100% conclusion. I spoke to ideal and they say try gas valve as gas pressures wrong and valve non adjustible but also try electrode and sensors......all at a further cost of £300 quid. I couldn't spend anymore money within the price i had quoted so i let the landlord know the difficult situation. Of course it has all ended in them wanting a new boiler now, getting a cheaper quote than mine and wanting discussions as regards the invoice,

The price to fit the heat exchanger was £750. The heat exchanger and other parts were £320 to me, trade, and I spent several hours on the boiler. As far as I'm concerned I quoted to fit a heat exhanger which i did. Water damage to other parts is not my fault.

Would you negotiate the invoice to cover the parts and rite the labour off or demand payment in full. I heard there is a threatening solicitor template on the internet, could anyone shed some light please as although a experienced engineer, not so with this type of stuff

 

[desrob]

humour him,get what you can,then jump him with a couple of your mates as he walks home from the boozer

 

[gmac]

If you gave him options and explained there could be other damaged components then you fully entitled to payment as he made decision, keep texts as could use them if you have to persue the matter in court

 

[EPH]

Could he not say you issued the cert when the boiler was working then you must have caused water damage to the gas valve changing the heat exchanger?
You done much work for him before?

 

[SimonG]

You've done what was needed to get it running, the water damage was something that was going to go pop at some point, just happened to be when you replaced it or when the water was topped up, something you would have done anyway.

As for discussions about your invoice it's simple, he pays the amount now or you re bill after 28 days +5%, and so on until 3 months old and small claims.

If I'd got the boiler job I would have done a bit of a deal as you then have a brand spanking heat exchanger and other parts to use at a later date. Obviously wouldn't have given him much back, just a carrot.

 

[splinterdream]

Yes, as a gas engineer that visits to do a ges cert with boiler working, you leave and then it breaks down, it does make you look like an incompetent idiot; I can see that but thats just the job isn't it. How many times do you take a boiler apart and a component breaks in your hand as no fault of your own.
I left the old heat exchanger on the job which you can see is well gone. I didn't make a warning other parts maybe faulty as everything done over text, face to face i probably would have. Should have done really. Never done work for the guy but I do know he's loaded. Well if anything this is a lesson that sometimes it may just be necessary to get some money up front. Lesson learned

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

I would issue a notice that he has 28 days to pay the bill in full or you will take the matter through the small claims court.

I would expect you to win the cost of materials and something reasonable for labour in the courts so get that ball rolling because it does take a really long time - it could be 6 to 9 months from today before a court hearing.

Hopefully it won't come to that by all means accept a reduced amount as final payment but no reason for you to be out of pocket - see if you could get him to agree to you fitting a boiler that might work out best

 

[EPH]

I think he'll say the gas valve was fine before you changed the heat ex to be honest with my experience of slippery customers.

 

[andyplumber]

i used to work for a landlord and he was loaded and a tight git, took ages getting paid. but i made him pay up front when i had to fit a new boiler and replace parts..back on to your question, I would give him 28 days to pay then add 15% a month to the bill and make sure you put it on the invoice then if no pay after 3 month take it to small claims court...

 

[REDSAW]

i done work for a housing association a few years back. i put in the terms 21 days then 15% per week if not paid!.
any way, 3 months later i got all of it.
then a month later, they paid me again but i didnt have the heart to tell them of their mistake lol.

 

[arran197]

TBH mate, you recommended a new boiler by quoting for it. The only thing is, you didn't pick up on the leak on the Service, which he could argue wasn't right. I would always top up pressure if it was low though, so wouldn't worry about that. If the exchanger had gone, it had gone. The guy was given the option of what to do. Do you know why the other parts have gone? It it water damage? Or just faulty Ideal crud? Lol!

 

[splinterdream]

It wasn't a service, it was a CP12. The burner inserts into the heat exchanger, you dont remove the burner unless you replace the seal so you use a flue gas analyser to test combustion hence when it leaked, it wasn't visable untill i removed the electrode on the recall to see if there was anything wrong and water started dripping out. The boiler has a couple of sensing tubes which probably got water in them too. Anyway thanks for help.

 

[metaldust9]

id just try and get what you can as anything under £5000 you carnt do anything about ive been down this road twice and never got a penny lost about £1500 all in all if they dont turn up at court or refuse to pay theres nothing you can do the small claims court has no real power its really just a frightener so people think court and pay but if they dig there heels in a dont u loose

 

[jase158]

My personal opinion is, I would speak to him, either face to face or some written communication, explaining that it was not possible to know wether these parts were broken until you replaced the other parts, basically a case of you have to fix one to get to the next problem. the boiler was in need of repair and there is no way of knowing how much until you investigated further.

Its funny how some customers think that you have a magic wand to see the exact problem straight away, like you have a magic computer that tells all. Try to explain that there was no way of knowing the exact problem and there was a lot of parts that were faulty.

any way, tell him that you are willing to come to some sort of arrangement, always best to be nice in my opinion, then if he flat out refuses to pay you, 1. you know where you stand, 2. you can persue it in small claims.

if he agrees, I wouldnt go for less then materials paid and half the labour.

the thing you need to weigh up is the stress and hassle of persueing it against the money, is this money going to ruin your business? then it may be worth persueing, is it a drop in the ocean for you? then maybe not worry too much?

I hope I have explained this well, just my opinion.

 

[splinterdream]

My thoughts exactly

 

[gasmarc]

its best if a simple solution can be agreed where by you get paid ,I have had numerous situations where dealing with solicitors and legal eagles and smart alexs try to get out of payment, EG went to a property that a guy had just bought was moving into and the boiler was disconnected which was unknown at the time ,i arrived on job and would not reinstate gas supply to boiler as the flue ran through the house and I wanted to know why the boiler was disconnected , the guy called someone else and he reconnected it and the guy refused to pay me , I did not follow it up as it was a recommendation

 

[ADM360]

You didn't say if you were "lucky enough" to be fitting the new boiler, you could sugest that if he goes with your quote there could be some discusion on the outstanding invoice! I recently had a customer that agreed on the price of my esstimate, but when it came time to pay, he disputed the time I had spent on site and therefore the labour cost on my final invoice, so after a few letters back and forth I came to the conclusion that he was not going to pay me the full amount and as he was disputing just over £200, I gave way and told he to forward the outsanding balance as agreed less the £200 and that would be the end of it!! I took the opinion that to instruct a soliciter to write a letter would cost a bit and it wouldn't just be one leter, and to go to small claims whilst the cost in small, i would need the day off work to attend court so I though I would cut mi losses and get what I could while he was willing to pay!!
It's never nice but even less so now it's all got a bit tighter!!

 

[secret squirrel]

I've taken the time to read all these replies and it appalls me.

Why doesn't Dom and the expert builder (fat bloke) and the two 'charlies' on the bike do a program about things like this post and the many others on this forum.

Why is it all tradesmen are 'monkeys' that you can't trust and all customers angels. Makes me sooooooo mad

 

[gmac]

I've taken the time to read all these replies and it appalls me.

Why doesn't Dom and the expert builder (fat bloke) and the two 'charlies' on the bike do a program about things like this post and the many others on this forum.

Why is it all tradesmen are 'monkeys' that you can't trust and all customers angels. Makes me sooooooo mad

Maybe the forum top brass could torture the bbc into such a show lol

 

[SimonG]

You didn't say if you were "lucky enough" to be fitting the new boiler, you could sugest that if he goes with your quote there could be some discusion on the outstanding invoice! I recently had a customer that agreed on the price of my esstimate, but when it came time to pay, he disputed the time I had spent on site and therefore the labour cost on my final invoice, so after a few letters back and forth I came to the conclusion that he was not going to pay me the full amount and as he was disputing just over £200, I gave way and told he to forward the outsanding balance as agreed less the £200 and that would be the end of it!! I took the opinion that to instruct a soliciter to write a letter would cost a bit and it wouldn't just be one leter, and to go to small claims whilst the cost in small, i would need the day off work to attend court so I though I would cut mi losses and get what I could while he was willing to pay!!
It's never nice but even less so now it's all got a bit tighter!!

Wrong Wrong Wrong. He agreed the estimate he pays the price. If things go well it's your choice to share that with the customer. Put it this way if it had taken longer would he have paid more? 🙂

 

[jlcgas]

Finding it more and more these days. Had one the other week job was priced at £350, parts were around £160 completed it all good happy customer. He wrote me a Cheuqe looked ok so took it. Cheuqe bounced so I rang him he said he had a cash flow problem so he bounced it. The cheeky sod then refused the full price arguing he had had between estimates online. In the I took £100 less than I should have just to re coup. Off the back of that uv sorted some terms and conditions I get people to sign befor jobs. Also I'm looking at getting a mobile card payment machine got the money straight away then.

 

[SimonG]

Too many soft lads out there by the sound of it, need to toughen up. 🙂 If word gets around that you don't chase people or are a soft touch you'll get shafted left right and centre.
I use 'all' means at my disposal to ensure the customer pays the bill and any costs involved in collecting it.

Like it's been said before people don't go to asda and tell the checkout people i think it's too expensive or I'll pay at the end of the month.

The trick is to growl under your breath when the excuses start. 🙂

 

[jase158]

I always take money for materials up front, pure and simple, Then I am not down anything, Never had any problem with customers paying it up front, problem is, most plumbing merchants give 30 days, most tilers take longer then a week to finnish, so your talking 2 weeks for completion of a bathroom plus if they choose to pay 30 days later, so your talking 44 days before payment, which gives you a bad rep with the plumbers merchant, not worth the hassle, over £50 and the customer pays the materials

 

[jase158]

And then I only reduce the price if it is genuinelyt my fault and I will say if they do not pay, "this was not my fault so I will not take responsibility"

however with the power of the internet all it takes is 10 minutes of their time and you are out of business.

 

[SimonG]

Thats slow for a bathroom jase158, generally 5 to 6 days just for me to plumbing and tiling. Suppose it's down to needing different people in etc.

 

[jase158]

Yeah, I dont do tiling, leave the tiling to a tiler. I have had loads of problems with tilers, 1. chipped bath and wetroom had puddle, 2. left grout/ adhesive marks on tiles, I spent hours cleaning off, 3. took nearly 3 weeks to do 1 bathroom. I am amazed at how bad the tilers are around here.

 

[secret squirrel]

Finding it more and more these days. Had one the other week job was priced at £350, parts were around £160 completed it all good happy customer. He wrote me a Cheuqe looked ok so took it. Cheuqe bounced so I rang him he said he had a cash flow problem so he bounced it. The cheeky sod then refused the full price arguing he had had between estimates online. In the I took £100 less than I should have just to re coup. Off the back of that uv sorted some terms and conditions I get people to sign befor jobs. Also I'm looking at getting a mobile card payment machine got the money straight away then.

AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, thats it, I just despise people like this I get the urge to take my tomahawk axe out of the van and ram it through his head.

 

[secret squirrel]

Too many soft lads out there by the sound of it, need to toughen up. 🙂 If word gets around that you don't chase people or are a soft touch you'll get shafted left right and centre.
I use 'all' means at my disposal to ensure the customer pays the bill and any costs involved in collecting it.

Like it's been said before people don't go to asda and tell the checkout people i think it's too expensive or I'll pay at the end of the month.

The trick is to growl under your breath when the excuses start. 🙂

I gave someone a bill a year ish ago, he said he wasn't going to pay, I said 'I knew you were going to be like this' walked through him upstairs kicked the bookcase out of the way (I'd put it back after I was told there was a false wall behind it for the pipe work) he followed me and enquired what I was doing. I explained calmly that I was going to remove my pipework, he informed that he would call plod. I stopped looked at him and said I'd rather do time than let you treat me like this and by the time plod turns up I'll be at home. He paid.

Let me be honest, I'm not proud of what I'd done nor would I recommend it as a course of action, but this chap was having a go at me for 2 days. No matter what I did it was wrong etc. It was the proverbial straw. Not been like it since, thankfully

 

[jase158]

I had a chap who was watching my every move the whole day wanted me to explain my every move, then at the end of it, I said I would come back and sort out his underfloor heating that was never working for him and I would do it for free, He then said to me he will only pay me half of what he owed me and the other half when I came back, I went mad because I did loads for him that day and didnt charge (as I was doing a power flush and had a bit of time on my hands inbetween each radiator)

I said at the end that I wanted the money he owed me and that the second visit would be a further £150, He never called me again.

So much for my calm and collected attitude

 

[ADM360]

Wrong Wrong Wrong. He agreed the estimate he pays the price. If things go well it's your choice to share that with the customer. Put it this way if it had taken longer would he have paid more? 🙂

I relise it's wrong but how much time and money do you spend to get it back!! do you spend more than your owed just to prove a point, i looked at it that either way round I'm out of pocket!! although I did tell the builder that passed the job on to me, and where we were all about to start a large job ( the non payer was apperently a bit of a bricky), and the builder rang him the next day to say the job has been cancelled!! the new bricky hasn't put his trowel drown for nearly three months!! so I spose what comes around and all that!!

 

[SimonG]

I relise it's wrong but how much time and money do you spend to get it back!! do you spend more than your owed just to prove a point, i looked at it that either way round I'm out of pocket!! although I did tell the builder that passed the job on to me, and where we were all about to start a large job ( the non payer was apperently a bit of a bricky), and the builder rang him the next day to say the job has been cancelled!! the new bricky hasn't put his trowel drown for nearly three months!! so I spose what comes around and all that!!

Whatever it takes and charge accordingly. Otherwise he's out there bragging he pulled a fast one on you. After all your running a business not a charity.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

And then I only reduce the price if it is genuinelyt my fault and I will say if they do not pay, "this was not my fault so I will not take responsibility"

however with the power of the internet all it takes is 10 minutes of their time and you are out of business.

Every bathroom we do is 2 weeks, we have set days with the same trademen every week and we do bathrooms almost all year round. we bring in other trades as required - always tiler & sparks and sometimes plasterer or carpenter.
We tell customer balance is due on completion and we do expect our cheque on the last day. Almost all pay that day and most within a few days.