Appliance FGA chart/list?

[HeatStar]

Hi all,

Been wondering recently if there is a list or some kind data sheet containing general fga tolerances for different appliances?

I know there is always the MIs but these are often not to hand and for certain appliances not even available. I remember a list for ratios in my Logic4training booklet but this doesn't cover CO PPM etc...

For example today I examined a Rio 50EL Leisure free standing cooker and grill for a landlords cert. Gas pressure, rates and flame picture all fine. But my Kane analyzer was picking up a CO/C02 Ratio of about 0.018. The CO PPM went up to nearly 500 initially (alarm bells!!) but then stabalized at about 230.

I very rarely work on cookers (although have CK1) so what should I take from this?

Thanks

 

[JAP&H]

Hi

Generic list in BS 7967-3.

Friendly training centre may let you have a copy of list.

Some MIs differ greatly from this though, as I said, generic.

 

[aggis]

There are different action points for different types of appliances, a sheet with the details should have been given to you, when doing your CPA assessment or [CENWAT if done in the last 2 months]. If you haven't got the flue gas analyser [CPA], get in touch with your training centre as your boilers etc will be void. You might be able to get a list off someone on the Gas Safe Registered plumbers part of this site.

 

[diamondgas]

Here's a starter for you 🙂 Anything plus 0.004 you really need to be investigating & if you can't get it below 0.008 then AR I believe 🙂

Anything over 50ppm in the room is at risk according to HSE [DLMURL="http://www.ciphe.org.uk/Professional/Public-Health/Carbon-Monoxide/"]Carbon Monoxide - CIPHE[/DLMURL]

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]concentration[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Symptoms[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]35 ppm (0.0035%)[/TD]
[TD]Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of constant exposure[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]100 ppm (0.01%)[/TD]
[TD]Slight headache in two to three hours[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]200 ppm (0.02%)[/TD]
[TD]Slight headache within two to three hours; loss of judgment[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]400 ppm (0.04%)[/TD]
[TD]Frontal headache within one to two hours[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]800 ppm (0.08%)[/TD]
[TD]Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 min; insensible within 2 hours[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1,600 ppm (0.16%)[/TD]
[TD]Headache, tachycardia, dizziness, and nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3,200 ppm (0.32%)[/TD]
[TD]Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten minutes. Death within 30 minutes.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6,400 ppm (0.64%)[/TD]
[TD]Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12,800 ppm (1.28%)[/TD]
[TD]Unconsciousness after 2-3 breaths. Death in less than three minutes.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[HeatStar]

Thanks for your responses guys.

Just to clarify I am GSR and hold CPA1. I did this module during my ACS in 2010. I just thought there might be some more detailed guidance available for engineers in relation to FGA findings where MIs are not available.

In my Domestic Gas Engineers Manual provided by Logic4Training it states:

Flueless cookers - cooker grill (CE marked) CO/CO2 ratio 0.010
Flueless cookers - cooker grill (non CE marked) CO/CO2 ratio 0.020

Assuming my cooker in question is non CE marked then my reading of 0.018 is permissable? But what about PPM? I know that for example, a Vaillant Ecotec boiler allows up to 250PPM, but this is obviously room sealed and a whole different ball game. Where do I stand with a PPM reading that sky rockets initially but then stabalises there after at around 230PPM?

 

[kirkgas]

Hi all,

Been wondering recently if there is a list or some kind data sheet containing general fga tolerances for different appliances?

I know there is always the MIs but these are often not to hand and for certain appliances not even available. I remember a list for ratios in my Logic4training booklet but this doesn't cover CO PPM etc...

For example today I examined a Rio 50EL Leisure free standing cooker and grill for a landlords cert. Gas pressure, rates and flame picture all fine. But my Kane analyzer was picking up a CO/C02 Ratio of about 0.018. The CO PPM went up to nearly 500 initially (alarm bells!!) but then stabalized at about 230.

I very rarely work on cookers (although have CK1) so what should I take from this?

Thanks

im not sure what you would take from results like this, but the first thing i would have taken would be my FGA outside after the reading went past 90ppm as that is the criteria for testing cooker grills, you really need to brush up on procedures before you hurt yourself or someone else

 

[kirkgas]

Here's a starter for you 🙂 Anything plus 0.004 you really need to be investigating & if you can't get it below 0.008 then AR I believe 🙂

Anything over 50ppm in the room is at risk according to HSE [DLMURL="http://www.ciphe.org.uk/Professional/Public-Health/Carbon-Monoxide/"]Carbon Monoxide - CIPHE[/DLMURL]

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]concentration
[/TH]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center"]Symptoms
[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]35 ppm (0.0035%)
[/TD]
[TD]Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of constant exposure
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]100 ppm (0.01%)
[/TD]
[TD]Slight headache in two to three hours
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]200 ppm (0.02%)
[/TD]
[TD]Slight headache within two to three hours; loss of judgment
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]400 ppm (0.04%)
[/TD]
[TD]Frontal headache within one to two hours
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]800 ppm (0.08%)
[/TD]
[TD]Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 min; insensible within 2 hours
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1,600 ppm (0.16%)
[/TD]
[TD]Headache, tachycardia, dizziness, and nausea within 20 min; death in less than 2 hours
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3,200 ppm (0.32%)
[/TD]
[TD]Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6,400 ppm (0.64%)
[/TD]
[TD]Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Convulsions, respiratory arrest, and death in less than 20 minutes.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]12,800 ppm (1.28%)
[/TD]
[TD]Unconsciousness after 2-3 breaths. Death in less than three minutes.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

over 50ppm in a room doesnt apply to a room containing a properly fitted cooker

 

[HeatStar]

im not sure what you would take from results like this, but the first thing i would have taken would be my FGA outside after the reading went past 90ppm as that is the criteria for testing cooker grills, you really need to brush up on procedures before you hurt yourself or someone else

Kirkgas, just sent you a PM. Cheers

 

[diamondgas]

over 50ppm in a room doesnt apply to a room containing a properly fitted cooker

I was waiting for you to turn up mate! Had to do some reading on FGA procedures after I posted above... What struck me was the high level of CO mentioned in original post and did a quick search to get across to the op how little CO it takes to become harmfull... Since read up and recognise the 90ppm threshold mark you mention .. cheers 🙂

 

[kirkgas]

Kirkgas, just sent you a PM. Cheers

not got the PM yet

 

[HeatStar]

not got the PM yet

Strange, seems to have disappeared from my sent messages file? Anyway I was really just discussing further about PPM readings on cookers, nothing that hasn't been cleared up for me now. 90PPM or above, appliance is ID. Gas Safe confirmed this for me today and the tenant has decided to source a new cooker.

Valuable lesson learned on my part about PPM levels. Must admit that I hadn't done any FGA on anything other than boilers since my ACS so glad you guys were quick to point out my error.